Author Topic: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...  (Read 16887 times)

dj

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
  • Wasn't I a cute baby?!?
Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« on: April 30, 2007, 11:24:54 AM »
Well, I've finally made up my mind to not put the bike in the shop and just start ripping into her myself.  I’m still dealing with the issue of it not starting.  I borrowed a flywheel puller from my father-in-law and I planned on starting it this past weekend, but the rain we got in Maine kind of put a damper on my ambition.

I've been doing some testing with the bike and it seems to be either one of two things that are preventing the motor from turning over. Voltage of the battery that I have been using is 12.2V under no load and low 11's when under load.

     - Either the starter motor isn't turning properly
     OR
     - The starter clutch is loose/messed up.

I've rebuilt the starter motor (new seal and new guts) but I am not sure if it is turning fast enough.  My first task this upcoming weekend (or sooner if the rain stops before then) will be to take the left side cover off and remove the gear that connects the starter motor from the rest of the gears and hit the ignition switch.  This will let me actually see how effective the starter is turning.  I don't think anything is binding up in the starter itself, but I just want to make sure first.  I tested it before putting it back on the bike and it turned over when it was connected to power in the vise.  Although it was hard to turn by hand.  So there may be a problem with to much friction somewhere in the starter motor that is making it not turn fast enough.  So here’s a question, how easily should the starter turn by hand when out of the bike?

After that I plan on checking out the starter clutch itself to see what is going on behind the flywheel.  I have a large tarp that I plan on parking the bike on (to catch anything that comes out from under the flywheel when I remove it.  I figure that everything should land on the tarp and be easier to find again instead of trying to pick around in the grass of the front lawn to find things. ;)  I have Lucky’s CD and will be rereading the starter clutch information on his site and in the manuals.  So here is the second question, is there any other special tools that I’ll need besides the flywheel puller to checkout the starter clutch?  How do I tell if something is loose in the starter clutch?  And lastly what is under the flywheel that will come springing out when it pops off?

Any advice/help that anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated.  This is my first time doing a repair like this so I am a little tentative about how to proceed.  Thanks in advance.

PS - anybody in my area that could come up and help me??  ;D
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 06:20:16 PM by dj »
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Night Vision

  • Contributing Member
  • Visionary Grand Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503

So here’s a question, how easily should the starter turn by hand when out of the bike?

the starter will turn by hand, it does require a good amount of force, but it should not bind... you can hear the gears spinning and a whirling type sound

So here is the second question, is there any other special tools that I’ll need besides the flywheel puller to checkout the starter clutch? 

you need metric bolts to fit into the flywheel and possibly a sacrificial bolt to put in the crank.... see Don's thread

How do I tell if something is loose in the starter clutch?  And lastly what is under the flywheel that will come springing out when it pops off?

the only moving parts in the starter clutch are the cams and springs. When the clutch starts spinning fast enough, the cams "grab" and turn the crankshaft/rods/pistons. It is these cams and springs (the springs also have a metal cover on one end) that go flying.... again see Don's pics

« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 01:34:47 PM by Night Vision »
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
 ;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

dj

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
  • Wasn't I a cute baby?!?
NV - thanks for the reply.  I'm not sure if the bolts that I have are metric or standard.  There are three or four sets of bolts (of various lengths) that came with the puller that I am borrowing.  I'll check out Don's post when I get home as I can't see the pics from work.

DAMN FIREWALL!!!
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Lucky

  • Visionary Grand Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 9877
  • That's my baby!!
one other tool you'll need:
BFH, nothing rated in ounces...
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

Night Vision

  • Contributing Member
  • Visionary Grand Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
he's a blacksmith... he ought to have lots of bfh's  :D
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
 ;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

Tiger

  • Visionary Grand Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 6217
  • Tiger, tiger burning bright...
  I'm not sure if the bolts that I have are metric or standard. 

dj...Look at the head's of the bolt's, if they read...8.8 or 10.9 or even 12.9 then they are metric ;)

                      8).......TIGER....... 8)
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming HOOOOYA lets go again baby !!!!!!

'82 Vision, Pearl Orange finish, lots of up-grades!!!

inanecathode

  • Contributing Member
  • Visionary Grand Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 3005
  • Vive la V!
Would an inpact wrench and some heat be a bad idea? Or might that make things a little easier on the flywheel end of things.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
If you can't tell your friend to kiss your ass then they aren't a true friend.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

dj

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
  • Wasn't I a cute baby?!?
he's a blacksmith... he ought to have lots of bfh's  :D

I have a 2.5 pound crosspeen (the smallest hammer I ever use) and a 4 pound sledge in my shop.  If I need anything bigger then that I'll need to borrow my father-in-law's 5 pound or 8 pound sledge.

Big hammers are something I can get my hands on very easily.  ;D
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

dj

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
  • Wasn't I a cute baby?!?
Here are some updates from the work I did last night.  I also took some pictures that will be forthcoming (probably this afternoon).

As stated the first thing I looked at was the starter motor.  I took off the side cover and also removed the gear that goes on the metal rod right next to the starter motor.  I then hit the ignition switch and the starter motor turned very fast and made a nice whirring sound (no binding).

So I then pulled out the puller to see if I had the right bolts that I need.  Well, I have one set of bolts that are the right thread size, but I am not sure if they are the right length or not.  They are around 3.5-4 inches in length (guesstamate:  I couldn’t find the tape measure and I was doing this at around 1030 at night).  I didn’t actually use the puller last night as it was already getting late and it was starting to rain again.

What I did notice is that the three bolts from the starter clutch appear to be backed into the holes approx. 3-4 threads.  They are only slightly with drawn into the holes so I am hoping that means that nothing is chewed up on the inside.  The engine has never made any knocking sounds when running, so I don’t expect there to be any damage to the starter clutch.  So hopefully all I’ll need to do is get the right size grade 8 bolts for the replacement and peen them over per the instructions on Lucky’s site.  I plan on taking the old bolts to the hardware store and getting some new ones that are about 3-4 threads longer to give enough extra length to peen them.

I have printed out the applicable pages from the Haynes manual for the removal.  Unfortunately the parts store didn’t have any chain wrenches, so does this mean that I’ll need to take off the right side case and wedge a rag in the gears on the other side to be able to get the center bolt out of the flywheel?  Not a big deal if I have to, it just means that I’ll need to place a new side cover seal on order.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Night Vision

  • Contributing Member
  • Visionary Grand Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
you do not take the right side case off. I use a lead wheel weight to jam into the gears (in the left case)... I used a rag before, but that got chewed up and then I had to pick a bunch of cloth out of the teeth
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
 ;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

dj

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
  • Wasn't I a cute baby?!?
you do not take the right side case off. I use a lead wheel weight to jam into the gears (in the left case)... I used a rag before, but that got chewed up and then I had to pick a bunch of cloth out of the teeth

NV - what is a lead wheel weight?  I have never heard of this before.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

YellowJacket!

  • Contributing Member
  • Visionary Grand Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 5434
  • Don't blame the economy...blame the management!
    • My Vision Blog
one of those little weights that they clip onto your rims on your car to balance them.  Easier to see if you have stock steel rims.  If you have aluminum rims, they may stick them on the inside with double stick tape and you can't see them.

David


Living the dream - I am now a Physician Assistant!!   :-)

dj

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
  • Wasn't I a cute baby?!?
one of those little weights that they clip onto your rims on your car to balance them.  Easier to see if you have stock steel rims.  If you have aluminum rims, they may stick them on the inside with double stick tape and you can't see them.

David

Well, I don't have any of those kicking around, however I do have a decent supply of shop cloths to use the rolled up rag trick.  I'll just have to see how things go.  Thanks for the input guys.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

dj

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
  • Wasn't I a cute baby?!?
Here is the first of a few pics that I took of how things look.  This first pic is of the flywheel.  You can't see it very well, but the three bolts are backed into the hole a few threads.  Not 100% sure if this is my problem yet, but it definetly aint helping.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 02:16:59 PM by dj »
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

don_vanecek

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 918
  • not currently running
I just used rags when I did mine. For whatever help it is to you, I purposely took a picture of the bolts I used next to a ruler. I suppose next time I should do it next to a metric ruler, duh!

By the way, although this will cost you more money, I was sure glad I used that cometic gasket, since you don't put any dope on it, it sure made for a quick an easy job when I had to take my side cover off again. All I had to do was wipe alittle oil off.  Of course my engine had not ran, (thank goodness) I suppose the gasket may react alittle different after running though several hot/cold cycles.

AH, I see you are on as I write this!

dj

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
  • Wasn't I a cute baby?!?
Don - yeah, I am trying to post pictures of the flywheel, but the picture is to big and I am having trouble compressing it.

I also can't see any of the pics from your post at work, firewall blocks it.  I didn't get a chance to check it out from home last night, but I plan on it tonight before I do anything else with the bike.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

dj

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
  • Wasn't I a cute baby?!?
Here are two more pics of the bike.  One is of gear on the end of the starter motor and the other is a view of the left side of the bike.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

dj

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
  • Wasn't I a cute baby?!?
Heres a few more of my V.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

dj

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
  • Wasn't I a cute baby?!?
Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2007, 03:21:25 PM »
last ones until the flywheel is off.  ::)

ONLY 14052 miles on her.  Not to bad for being 25 years young.

She'll be looking a lot better once she gets a new coat of paint.  Keeping the same color schemes, just fixing the messed up part on the tank and adding a little of my own flavor to it.  I love the look of the blue and silver (image that coming from and Air Force guy  ::))
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Night Vision

  • Contributing Member
  • Visionary Grand Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2007, 03:33:52 PM »
that's a good looking V there dj... glad you haven't given up on her...

the last flywheel I took off had two sheered bolts and one that was backing out... by the time I pulled the flywheel, the starter clutch stayed on the crank  :o

your flywheel / bolts look ok from what I can see... good time to replace them. it's when you get oblong holes where the bolts are that you have woes.

there seems to be some sticky rollers on the formum lately... hopefully that's all thats wrong with yours.

when you do get the correct metic bolts for the puller, make sure you don't screw them in too far. they only go in about 5 or 7 16ths. of an inch. otherwise you'll bend the tin backing plate on the starter clutch..

chances are you won't be able to get new clutch bolts that are 3 or 4 threads longer. You'll prolly end up getting longer ones, put a nut on it, and the cut or grind them down.. Without digging up my old posts, I'd say they are 6mmx1.25x12? I took the bolt and put two metric nuts on it. Ground the bolt on a bench grinder until I reached the first nut. took the first nut off, cross-cut with a dremel (makes peening lots easier) slightly cleaned the threads up in the grinder, and took the last nut off.

this makes them the "perfect" length.. well perfect enough for me and you don't have to measure nut-in.  ;)
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
 ;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano