Starter Freewheeling.

[Lucky]

Pardon my quick & dirty paint skills..

Lets take this logicly:

i don't know remember for a fact, so we will take what you said as fact as far as the direction the starter turns.

1) if the starter turns CLOCKWISE, as you indicate, then the starter idler gear must turn COUNTER clockwise. the starter clutch gear (and flywheel, if the springs & rollers are working properly) MUST turn CLOCKWISE.

2) Lets assume the starter is turning in the right direction, the photo of the end cap seems to support that.

3) If 1 & 2 are true, then something else must be wrong.  Possabilities, however remote:

A) the 'ring' gear is loose from the rest of the clutch somehow, i forget if it's cast as one piece, so this may or may not be possable.

B) the piece that holds the rollers & springs is in 'backwards'. again, may or may not be possable, but if it is possable, the rollers would be angled at the wrong direction & would grab the clutch hub in the oppisete direction as well.

c) rollers & springs installed incorrectly, or springs very weak.

D) something else like the woodruf key is wrong, the clutch gear is bent & missing the idler gear alltogether, etc.

couple-a things:

--someone needs to VERIFY the direction things turn in an independedt Vision,
-- Billy, you need to verify the direction your starter turns when power is applied WHILE INSTALLED (jump it if you have to)
--pull the clutch cover, a plug, something & verify that the engine isn't actually turning. (don't discount this step)

--Lucky

[Billy Bob]

I still have my cover off, I had the flywheel back on the crank with woodruff key in so flywheel cannot turn on the crank.  I hit starter switch and it just freewheels away, gears all turn but the clutch is not engaging.  The directions that are drawn on picture are the way everything is spinning.  The flywheel does not move.  Engine is not siezed.  I could take a video of it but I have no idea of how to post that do to its size.  I have not torqued the flywheel back on and try it, maybe I need the pressure of the thrustwasher and bolt holding it all together to get the proper effect?   Could try that???

[Lucky]

so the starter clutch gear behind the flywheel turns, but the flywheel doesn't (correct?)

if you remove the idler gear & turn the clutch gear behind the flywheel back & forth (clockwise & counter clockwise) just by hand, does it grab one way at all)

if it grabs in the 'correct' direction, then either:

--the springs, caps & rollers are not doing their job, make sure this is correct (i believe you can do this with the flywheel & clutch off the bike):

the springs go on first, then the caps, then the rollers.  the way the clutch is designed, the parts are at an angle to the hub part of the flywheel they ride on, & 'jamb' against the flywheel hub in one direction only.

or the rollers, hub surface, springs or something is dammaged & too 'loose' to allow the rollers to jamb properly.

if the clutch catches in the 'wrong' direction then the main part of the clutch that holds the springs caps & rollers HAS to somehow be installed backwards, or has a crack in it that opens up when force is applied, & you missed it the first time around.

you'll have to operate things slowly & watch carefully to determine what is wrong.  close observation is the key to finding the cause.

--Lucky

[Lucky]

btw, if you suspect a crack, , run the part in some sandy soil, (at least up north  ;D ) you'll pick up naturaly occuring iron particals. if there is a crack, some of them will align along the crack (assuming the part is magnitised, & i'll bet it is spinning inside those flywheel magnets)

--Lucky

[Night Vision]

here's a thought: make sure the springs, caps, and rollers are installed correctly and are able to do their job...

without the gear, the rollers ought to protrude into the hole of the starter clutch. when you go to put the gear into the clutch, it doesn't just slide right in... you have to hold the rollers back

you kinda tilt the gear to depress two of them and then use a screw driver to depress the last one...

sound familar?

[Lucky]

i just rotated mine 'backwards' & pushed. pops right in.

[Billy Bob]

When I rotate the gear counterclockwise it grabs right away.  Springs, caps and rollers are all installed correctly, they protrude out and I have to spin the gear to get it to drop in.  There are no visible cracks.

[Night Vision]

if you are looking from the back of the starter clutch, and when turning the gear cclockwise, it engages, then that is correct. then if you look at from the other side, it would be turning flywheel clockwise which is correct,,,


so if you look at luckys' pic, looking at the nose of the starter, it should turn clockwise, the idler gear goes cc, the starter clucth gear goes clockwise (or counter clock wise if you are looking at it from the rear) the flywheel and crank go clockwise.

this is incorrect, looking at the starter nose, the starter should turn counter clock wise and the flywheel turns counter clockwise...

[Ron_McCoy]

Your starter clutch is cracked. The crack is visible in the picture.  This is enough to make the starter freewheel.  I have a collection with cracks just like this and they all freewheel.  The crack lets the clutch spread open instead of grabbing the gear and turning the flywheel. They can be grooved and :) TIG welded.  You have to be very careful not to get any weld material in the hole for the spring. Its very difficult to remove.  The spring hole is the thin spot and where they always crack.

Good luck

Ron

[Lucky]

sure as heck is!! wionder why i didn't notice it before!!

[ps2/bikevision]

heck i missed that crack too. thats what my first was cracked like.  looks like you need a new starter clutch.

[inanecathode]

I saw it <_< i just assumed everyone else did. I also assumed it was fine because nobody mentioned it :o

[Billy Bob]

Thats my old starter clutch.  I got a new used one from samsr.  New one is not cracked.  Flywheel has an arrow on it that shows it should be rotating counter clockwise, which is the way that my starter clutch grabs, but my starter does not turn it that way.  My starter turns the gear in behind clockwise and it just freewheels.  This is why I believe it is my starter.  It was rebuilt 2 years ago and never ran the bike since i got it back.  But if the wiring is good then I don't know how it can run backwards.  I might just switch the wires around for the hell of it and see what happens.

[Lucky]

ok, one other thought then:
the starter has inedxes on the parts to keep it lined up properlu, but i do know that if they are bent a bit they don't hold.  i'll bet it's possable to turn the end plate 108 degrees out.  i think, in theroy, this could cause the starter to turn backwards? 

the can motors on my (now my sons) elecrtic RC cars have 'timing' marks. simply turning the end bell a few degrees changes affects the torque/rpm of the motor.  not sure if a 12V system would be the same, or if you turned the end bell on the rc motor all the way if it would spin backwards, but if nothing else, it's worth an inspection. 

on my V the pos post on the starter is in fromt of the 10mm mounting hole.  or maybe the plate is 180 out but the end cap still reaches...

fft --Lucky

[Scott_Mc]

Interesting thread, sticky material here!

I took the starter out and it works great I just had it rebuilt last year, but never ran the bike. (I put positive to terminal and negative to frame of starter).  The starter rotates the same way the gear free wheels....

Thats my old starter clutch.  I got a new used one from samsr.  New one is not cracked.  Flywheel has an arrow on it that shows it should be rotating counter clockwise, which is the way that my starter clutch grabs, but my starter does not turn it that way.  My starter turns the gear in behind clockwise and it just freewheels.  This is why I believe it is my starter.  It was rebuilt 2 years ago and never ran the bike since i got it back.  But if the wiring is good then I don't know how it can run backwards.  I might just switch the wires around for the hell of it and see what happens.

Well, my head is spinning here, but I'm not sure in which direction ??? ;)

Unless you have the starter removed from the bike I would not connect reverse polarity unless both of the starter terminals are isolated electrically from the engine/frame of the bike. The disconnected negative terminal of the starter should I believe, under normal circumstances have continuity with the chassis of the bike, yes?   You confirmed this youself by bench testing the starter out of the bike in the first quote above.  If true would this not be a way to tell if it is miswired internally? If that were so though, I suppose there would have been a dead short upon installing a battery.  A few continuity tests along with the fact that the starter clutch is spinning the opposite direction seems to confirm your beliefs that the starter is the culprit here.  I think!


Hey if you could get the engine to run backwards....just think, 5 reverse gears  :o !

[ps2/bikevision]

lucky i think your on to something here. i was just reading in my manual about the aligment marks on the starter. you think it could be that.



and i thought there wasent anything on these bikes that someone hasent had happen. this is a new one for sure.

[inanecathode]

If the ring gear inside the nose of the starter isn't pinned to the case, would that cause the wrong rotation direction?

[Billy Bob]

Well I don't know what happened but after I put my starter all back together I tested it and it is now turning the right way, so I put it back on the bike slapped the flywheel on the crank and tested it, sure enough she is rolling over good now - the right way counter clock wise.  I dont know what caused it to run backwards, maybe a grounded wire inside or something?

This may be forever, an unsolved vision mystery, but its working awesome now and thats all I care about :)  Thanks for all your help and time.  Oh also whats the torque spec on the flywheel and case bolts?

Thanks, BOB

[Lucky]

ARRRGHH!! no definative solution!!
ya killin me!  ;D

[h2olawyer]

The torque specs are normally listed in the Haynes manual - at the front of each chapter.  There's also a table in there someplace that gives the proper torque setting for each bolt size.  Don't have my manuals handy at the moment or I could give you an exact answer.

H₂O