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new guy got a few questions

Started by ralleywolf, July 15, 2007, 09:28:38 PM

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ralleywolf

Hey everybody. I havn't had my vision very long. Heres my story sorry its a lil long winded...

I was wanting to learn to ride and this bike was the coolest outa the ones i was looking at. It seemed to be running good when I bought it. However when I got it home I was unable to start it. It was low on gas so I filled it up with premium and a can of wynns carb cleaner (recomended by the previous owner) I still couldnt get it started but I smelled gas and figured Id flooded it. I waited a while and tried to start it again, repeating this untill the starter got weak.

At that point I took the battery out and left it over night on the trickle charger. I also phoned the prev owner and asked him about starting it. The next day after work I put the battery back in, set the chocke too 3/4 like the guy said and presto she fired right up. Took a few turns but it was fairly easy.

The next few times I started it, everything fired up pretty good. And I took it for a few little rides down my street. It's quite torkey in the low revs!

Now today I decide to put some insurance on her and go for a longer ride. but what do ya know, it just wont start up for me! I put the trickle charger back on the battery to keep it from getting to low, I set it up so that it can be charged while still connected to the bike. I was wondering if trying to start it while on the charger would be bad for the electronics? Also when I let it turn over for too long it backfires. Some of them were really loud. Im kinda thinking if gas is getting into exhaust like that then maybe I should get new spark plugs. Not sure exactly what ones to get.

Ralley

Lucky

she'll backfire like a cannon shot when the battery is low & she's not turning over as fast a s she should.  you can jump off a car (but NEVER a running one).

she needs a good charging system (common but fixable) & good amperage from the battery, also, ask the p.o. if the starter oil seal & stator have been changed.

read this site, as far back as you can, it's worth every dime you paid!

--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

ralleywolf

Thanks for the quick reply. I've been lurking and reading on this site as long as Ive had the bike. (3 or 4 weeks) The previous owner had the starter rebuilt. He also bought a new battery. He said trying to start it with a  weak  battery is what killed the starter.

He never said anything about the stator or oil seal, so Im thinking I should check this out. I still have his number   so I might call him again.

I need to get one of those volt meters so I can do some tests.

ColinthePilot

The starter oil seal was likely replaced when the starter was rebuilt. if its bad, you'll know it. the starter won't work; the housing will be full of oil
Colin
It pissed me off, so I jammed a screwdriver into it, hit it with a hammer, and spun it around with a pair of vice grips. Let that serve as a warning

inanecathode

Not neccesarily full of oil. There should be NO oil in it at all. Doesnt have to be totally packed, but it doesnt take much to kill the starter with engine oil.
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ColinthePilot

mine was dripping when i got it
Colin
It pissed me off, so I jammed a screwdriver into it, hit it with a hammer, and spun it around with a pair of vice grips. Let that serve as a warning

inanecathode

Aye, seems like the oil seal fails in various severity. Mine wasnt pouring oil out, but there was at least a 1/16 of an inch in there, enough to foul it apparently.
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ColinthePilot

mine had been sitting for an unknown amound of time, since i replaced the seal, i haven't had any since november.
Colin
It pissed me off, so I jammed a screwdriver into it, hit it with a hammer, and spun it around with a pair of vice grips. Let that serve as a warning

Aelwulf

Yeah, off-hand sounds like a weak battery.  If you start it and aren't going to ride it let it idle (in a well-ventilated area of course ;) ) for at least 10-15 minutes to try and get the charge back that you used to start it.  Personally I don't like having to turn it over more than 15-20 seconds at a pop, and only about 3 of those if it's being stubborn.  After that I start worrying about the charge getting low.  It might not be, but I do anyway. :P If you do a lot of start/no-runs just stick it on the charger again every 2-3 days (or leave it on if it'll be sitting more than about 3 days).

Ah, such fun to be out riding...
*thunk*
What was that?!

'82 Yamaha Vision XZ550RJ
'07 Kawasaki Vulcan 1600 Mean Streak Special Edition (VN1600B)

steve

when I got my V it came with a new battery but it was a bit smaller than the original and I had some starting problems.  I put in the proper size and have had no problems since.  A little more cold cranking amps did help a lot!

ralleywolf

Aarg! It's still not wanting to fire up for me. I left the trickle charger on all night and this morning the green light was on (meaning its all charged up) So after work I pull the tarp off the bike and try to fire her up. no action.  >:(

I pulled the spark plug out of the rear cylinder to test for spark. It seemed to be sparking pretty good so Im thinking the ignition sytem must be good. Im not sure what to check for next.

-Next tool im buying will be a multimeter and then I'll probably be on here asking some newbie kinda questions about using that, but is there anything else I can check before I get it?


ralleywolf

woa steve you posted while I was typing, I'll go check the battery and tell you guys whats written on it. The prev owner said it was still under warrenty but unfortunatly couldnt find the papers for it.

ralleywolf

It says "14L-A2" does this sound right? Steve was your battery physically smaller because mine seems to fit the battery compartment perfectly. If it were any bigger, it wouldnt fit.

inanecathode

If theres spark and fuel there must be fire (omitting compression, rare problem). Pour a bit of gas down each throat, hold the throttle all the way open, and see if it'll fire over a few times.
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dj

Couple questions and then I'll get into my suggestions.  When you pulled the plug was it dry or wet?  Does the engine feel like it is trying to start or just lazily turning over?  Are you sure there is fuel in the float bowls (you can check this by lightly loosening the drain screws on the front and back carbs)?

My suggestion is to put the petcock on prime for about 20-30 seconds, then take the tank off (make sure to put the petcock back to run.  This way you will have full float bowls (hopefully) for the test that I am going to describe.

So, take off the tank and the top of the air box.  Give a twist of the throttle while looking down the carbs.  Make sure that there is fuel being sprayed out of the copper colored nozzles.  If there isn't any fuel being sprayed out (or if it is not cone shaped or uniform between the front and back) then you have partially clogged up carbs.  Which would require you to pull them, dissasemble them and dip them in carb cleaner, spray dry them with compressed air and then put them back together.

My problem with my bike is that the fuel is getting to the bowls, but it wasn't getting anywhere else because things were plugged up with dirt and junk.

Now for the next part.  It there is fuel coming out the copper colored nozzles and being sprayed down pasted the butterfly valves then your next step would be to get a can of ether (spray can of starting fluid) and spray it down into both carbs.  If it wont fire the ether then you could have an issue with your plugs, caps, wires, or coils.  Make sure to check the gap on the plugs and make sure that they are nice and clean.

If it still wont fire over then try jumping the bike off a non running car.  You can try this one of two ways.  Hook the jumper cables up to the battery or go straight to the starter motor under the engine.

Please check these few items and let us know what you find out.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

ralleywolf

when I pulled the plug last night it was definetly wet. and when I try to start er she feels like shes really trying to start. not turning over lazily tho bear in mind this is my first bike with an electric start. so I dont have a whole lot to compare it too.

I did go ahead and take the tank off. it was actually way easier than i thought itd be. I thought it would leak fuel everywhere but it didnt. nice one yamaha. anyway when I loosened those drain plugs fuel did come out. and when I roll the throttle and look down I see the gas coming out of the copper lines. They both come out in a stream. and both are uniform, but they're definetly not spraying in a cone. So does this means I have to take the carbs off and clean them?  :'(

I didnt try the ether because I dont have any. also I heard that ether is really hard on engines.

Night Vision

Quote from: ralleywolf on July 15, 2007, 09:28:38 PM

.......Also when I let it turn over for too long it backfires. Some of them were really loud. Im kinda thinking if gas is getting into exhaust like that then maybe I should get new spark plugs. Not sure exactly what ones to get.


yep, backfires will happen when.....

you don't have more than 10v when you are cranking the engine and you load up the exhaust with excess gas...
usually after you stop... and turn the key back on.... KaBam!

even a good new battery won't hold up very long...

1st.... get new plugs.... $1.79 ea... get four! I use NGK D8EA (no other numbers or letters, 'specially no "R") gap 0.024-0.028 in.

then try jumping your battery to a car battery and cranking it over.. just straight jump WITHOUT CAR RUNNING
that'll give you much longer cranking time......

Quote from: ralleywolf on July 17, 2007, 09:26:13 PM
.....and when I roll the throttle and look down I see the gas coming out of the copper lines. They both come out in a stream. and both are uniform, but they're definitely not spraying in a cone. So does this means I have to take the carbs off and clean them?  :'(

yeah, I haven't seen a "cone" either... both working and uniform is ok

Quote from: ralleywolf on July 17, 2007, 12:29:54 AM
...Next tool im buying will be a multimeter....

another good tool is the "search" button ... best tool on the forum...

If the V was running and starting when you got her... then started acting up... sounds to me like there are two possibilities...

1) your carbs were clean and now they are not... do you have an in-line filter? might have to clean the main jets... accelerator nozzles work though so again, that's good.

2) your charging system was good and now isn't.... or the PO masked it with a new battery... the battery was sufficient for awhile, but if the charging system isn't working... the battery/charging system is now insufficient

if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

ralleywolf

Quote from: Night Vision on July 17, 2007, 10:03:34 PM
you don't have more than 10v when you are cranking the engine and you load up the exhaust with excess gas...
usually after you stop... and turn the key back on.... KaBam!

So when I get the multimeter I should check for 10 or more voltz - while cranking the starter? Where do i check, across the battery terminals?

Quote
1st.... get new plugs.... $1.79 ea... get four! I use NGK D8EA (no other numbers or letters, 'specially no "R") gap 0.024-0.028 in.

I will go and get those plugs. the ones I got with my V said "NGKR DR8ES" what is the deal with the R?

Quote
1) your carbs were clean and now they are not... do you have an in-line filter? might have to clean the main jets... accelerator nozzles work though so again, that's good.

Didnt see an inline filter there. I'll get one when I go to get the plugs. How can I tell if the main jets are cloged? I should be able to tell when I look straight down the carb right?

--Also I took my YICS triangular thing off to test it. When I blow into one port and cover the other its tight, but when I uncover the other part a bit of air escapes to the otherside. So I suppose I have an internal leak. Would this cause problems starting it? The long hose seemed to be doing okay but the short hose is in really rough shape so I'll buy some new hose too.


dj

You want to make sure that your battery is charging to a steady state of 12.6 volts off the charger (check accross the terminals).  When trying to start the bike it shouldn't drop below 11 volts especially on the first couple times.  If it does then you might just have a bad battery.

Plugs being wet means that the engine is flooding out.  What method are you using to start the bike (full choke, half choke, twisting the throttle...)?

If the bike hasn't been sitting for awhile then all you need to do to start it is put the choke to about 1/2 way and hit the start button.  If it has sat for a few days, then choke to 1/2 and 1 twist of the throttle (just gets some gas in the chamber).

If you are trying to start the bike and twisting the throttle at the same time then you are going to flood it out almost everytime.

One trick that was suggested to me by inanecathode is that if you try to start it a few times (2 times) and it wont start then twist the throttle and hold it open the next time that you are trying to start the bike.  This will allow more air in the mixture and help to offset a partially flooded condition.

If you crank it over more then say 3-4 times and it doesn't start then you want to check the plugs and see if they are dry or wet.  If they are wet then it is flooded again and you need to adjust your starting method.  If they are dry then check your battery as it might be low.

Another thing that you can try is to push start the bike (make sure that you have somebody to help you if you don't have a hill to use).
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Night Vision

Quote from: ralleywolf on July 17, 2007, 11:13:33 PM
Quote from: Night Vision on July 17, 2007, 10:03:34 PM
you don't have more than 10v when you are cranking the engine and you load up the exhaust with excess gas...
usually after you stop... and turn the key back on.... KaBam!

So when I get the multimeter I should check for 10 or more voltz - while cranking the starter? Where do i check, across the battery terminals?

yes

Quote
1st.... get new plugs.... $1.79 ea... get four! I use NGK D8EA (no other numbers or letters, 'specially no "R") gap 0.024-0.028 in.

I will go and get those plugs. the ones I got with my V said "NGKR DR8ES" what is the deal with the R?

R is for restistor... you already have resistor caps, you don't want resistor plugs.... to much resistance... I just might go for non-resistor caps on my project... easier starting and I get to mess with everyone's radio  ;D
Quote
1) your carbs were clean and now they are not... do you have an in-line filter? might have to clean the main jets... accelerator nozzles work though so again, that's good.

Didnt see an inline filter there. I'll get one when I go to get the plugs. How can I tell if the main jets are cloged? I should be able to tell when I look straight down the carb right?

assuming you have an 82.. there are jets behind the hex nuts on the left side of both carbs and jets under both bowls behind screw caps.... be very careful when taking any jets out... they are brass and slots can strip... get the biggest bestest fitting screwdriver on them that you can..... (I actually ground down the sides on a small driver to get to the bottom ones) hold your breath  :o.... and give it a good quick "snap of the wrist"  

--Also I took my YICS triangular thing off to test it. When I blow into one port and cover the other its tight, but when I uncover the other part a bit of air escapes to the otherside. So I suppose I have an internal leak. Would this cause problems starting it? The long hose seemed to be doing okay but the short hose is in really rough shape so I'll buy some new hose too.

even a small internal leak can make for rough idling and hard starting.... either split it open and fix per Lucky's site, or cap them off for now....
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano