Author Topic: Ready to POR, still rust in tank  (Read 21137 times)

Tiffanator

  • ROV Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Crazy Southern Chick
Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« on: November 10, 2007, 05:58:57 PM »
Ok guys... I have sealed all the holes, removed the dent, run the marine clean through the tank and am 1 hour into the metal ready stage and I just peeked in the tank and its still rusty.  I read up on some other threads to see if I could figure out what to do about this and I'm getting scared.

If I drain the metal ready, rinse thoroughly, dry with a hairdryer, take it inside and POR it will it peel? That is SO not what I want. After all the trouble I have been through with this tank I do NOT want to start over.

My other option is that I still have about 2-3 gallons of Muriatic acid/water mixture that I originally used to clean the rust.. only it took so long to seal the holes that the tank rusted again. Should I dump that in there with some chain and shake it around for a day or so then try again? If I do that will I have to buy more marine clean and metal ready and repeat that process?

I can get a pic of what it looks like inside the tank if needed... but in short... its rusty. I read afterwards that I should have put some chain or something in with the marine clean... can I put any in now? Will it help?

Hope someone reads this soon.
Thanks
Tiff.
Tiffanator
First time restorer

kwells

  • Visionary Grand Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2876
    • WellsMoto
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2007, 06:13:25 PM »
There will be some flash rusting that occurs after the acid step.. POR actually says this is not a problem and will adhere.  If there are gigantic sections of rust still in the tank then I would probably be concerned.  If you were to re-acid the tank with muratic it will probably strip off your zinc coating contained in the POR phosphoric.  That would probably have greater adverse effects than to simply coat as-is.  Just have to use your judgment on this one.
...a vision is never complete.

www.wellsmoto.com

Night Vision

  • Contributing Member
  • Visionary Grand Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2007, 06:32:20 PM »
IMO the flash rust gives the por something to stick to.... just follow the steps, no worries  ;)
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
 ;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

Tiffanator

  • ROV Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Crazy Southern Chick
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2007, 06:39:01 PM »
Hi guys... well.. upon further investigation into the tank... there's still Kreem in it. Not like a little... a pretty good bit in some areas.
The rust isn't really a flash rust... its more of like spots of rust and spaces in between them have cleaned up. I'm really not sure what to do at this point... cause I don't want to be stripping off gooey POR in a few days.

Kwells... that's what I was worried about... the muriatic would undo everything I've just done to get the tank ready, so I'd have to go through the process again.

Is it true that if POR hits Kreem it gets all gooey and never cures? I'm scared now. Will it be ok if I don't POR the tank right when I'm done with the metal ready? I mean... if I wait til in the morning to get a few more opinions and think about it will it have rusted again? I can go ahead and finish the metal ready, rinse the tank, dry it with warm air and bring it inside for the night.

Thanks all.
Tiff
Tiffanator
First time restorer

Tiffanator

  • ROV Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Crazy Southern Chick
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2007, 07:13:43 PM »
Ok next question... Is this the fuel filter that you all are using?  If not... which one is it? This one seems good... its clear... and inexpensive... and clear.
Sorry to be a bother with all the questions.. the metal ready is out and the tank is sitting on the floor next to me... I'm not sure where to go from here... just remembered I don't have a hair dryer or heat gun, guess I need to borrow one.
Tiff.
Tiffanator
First time restorer

h2olawyer

  • Visionary Grand Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 6259
  • 1982 Yamaha XZ550RJ+ Vision
    • Robert M. Grover
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2007, 07:32:12 PM »
I'll let the others who have had more recent experience with formerly Kreemed tanks & new POR.  However, that is the fuel filter I currently use.  Works great for me.

H2O
If you have an accident on a motorcycle, it's always your fault. Tough call, but it has to be that way. You're in the right, and dead -on a bike. The principle is not to have any accident. If you're involved in an an accident, it's because you did not anticipate. Then, by default, you failed.

ironb12s

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • 1982 XZ550RJ - in pieces for paint
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2007, 08:01:24 PM »
Tiff, have you treated the tank with Phosphoric Acid, which I think is included with POR-15 Kit?  The PHO will etch the metal and remove any rust that is there, and it needs to be rinsed very well after use, before you apply the liner.  PHO is what is included with Kreem, and when used properly does the cleanout well - as evidenced by the liner in my tanks - so let's forgo any argument about it.   ;)  I would try to get the remaining Kreem out, tho, it may interfere with the POR-15.

As for the filter, yeppers, that one will be fine.  I use an automotive clear glass filter myself, and have had no troubles whatsoever.  ANY filter is better than none.  I just got done having to pull the carbs off of Brandi (my B12S) due to bowl drains being stuck and heads chewed up - all 4 will need replaced - butt I pulled the bowls off and found NOTHING untoward in them.  The outsides are cruddy (not anymore) but innards were nice and spotless.

Bon chance, T.   :) 
*************************************
SOC-UK 19744*MIG 821*IBA 9200*AMA 580210
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Book: "She don't look like much."
KayLee: "'Ah-uh, she'll fool ya."

Tiffanator

  • ROV Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Crazy Southern Chick
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2007, 08:15:47 PM »
Thanks, I'll order that filter for if I ever get the tank done... ugh.
Ironb12s... yes... the metal ready is a phosphoric acid. I let it sit the recommended 2 hours and still have rust and Kreem in the tank. At this point my conscience is telling me to scrap what I just did and start over with more acetone and chain, then muriatic acid again, then go back through the POR process. At this point I'm not really worried about cost.. I just don't want to screw this tank up for good.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone.
Tiffanator
First time restorer

Lucky

  • Visionary Grand Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 9877
  • That's my baby!!
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2007, 08:30:57 PM »
honestly, if it was me, i'd just make sure it's dry, nothing rattling around (lose rust) & POR it.  as long as it holds fuel without leaking you'll be fine. 

POR won't degrade the Kreem, some of the kits though have a little less POR than we really need, sorry i forget what size off hand... you just want to completely cover EVERYTHING inside.

Also, Vision tanks aren't that hard to come by. they show up with regularity here, on Ebay and other places.  it's entirly possable you'll find a good used tank (good meaning already prepped & ready to use) when your not even looking for one, for less than you've put out on this one.

So finish this one up & go on to the next project, & get her on the street.

 :D --Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

ironb12s

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • 1982 XZ550RJ - in pieces for paint
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2007, 08:37:32 PM »
Thanks, I'll order that filter for if I ever get the tank done... ugh.
Ironb12s... yes... the metal ready is a phosphoric acid. I let it sit the recommended 2 hours and still have rust and Kreem in the tank. At this point my conscience is telling me to scrap what I just did and start over with more acetone and chain, then muriatic acid again, then go back through the POR process. At this point I'm not really worried about cost.. I just don't want to screw this tank up for good.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

A suggested 2 hours?   :o  I let my tanks sit for at least 24 with it in there. At 12 hours, I drained about 1 gallon out, and then shook the tank with the remaining 3-4 gallons in it every hour. :-\

I think that at this point, throw the chain in with the acetone, but only enough to cover the chain.  Then, tilt the tank so the solution with the chain is over the areas with the Kreem, shake the tank - or rather, raise one end or side so the chain slides across the Kreem.  Repeat with the PHO and chain, don't even bother with the MURI.  Rinse thoroughly, and apply the POR-15.

You are a rather tenacious gal, good luck to you in your further efforts.  I hope this helps you get the job done, you've certainly earned it at this point.   ;)
*************************************
SOC-UK 19744*MIG 821*IBA 9200*AMA 580210
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Book: "She don't look like much."
KayLee: "'Ah-uh, she'll fool ya."

YellowJacket!

  • Contributing Member
  • Visionary Grand Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 5434
  • Don't blame the economy...blame the management!
    • My Vision Blog
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2007, 11:01:15 PM »
Step# 36 for removing stubborn stuck on gunk in a tank:  Get some good size 1 foot lengths of chain.  The kind of chain that you would lock up something really valuable with.  Cut it onto a few 1 foot lengths.  Fill your tank with the phosphoric acid and drop the chain in.  Then get a buddy and grip the tank from both ends and shake, rattle and roll the crap out of it.  The chain will scrape anything off the walls of the tank that is still in there.  Make sure the tank is sealed well and you are wearing protective clothing and eye wear just in case something comes undone.
It **should** get the rest of the stuff out.
I tried it without a buddy and practically dislocated my shoulder shaking the darn thing.

I'm off work tomorrow if you need a buddy.  ;D

Good Luck!

David


Living the dream - I am now a Physician Assistant!!   :-)

QBS

  • Contributing Member
  • Visionary Grand Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 3282
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2007, 11:14:26 PM »
Window sash chain with its sharp angular edges is really good for this purpose.  Ace Hardware or the like will probably have it.  Its' what I used when I PORed my '83 tank.

Tiffanator

  • ROV Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Crazy Southern Chick
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2007, 07:37:50 AM »
Thanks so much everyone.
Lucky... I really want to just POR it and forget it... but I'm having nightmares of the POR peeling cause I didn't do something right. I can't do this process again. I could get another tank... I guess I'll have to if this doesn't work. I really want to make this tank work.
ironb12s... One the bottle it says do not leave the metal ready in for more than 2 hours. I don't know why it says that, but I'm not going to risk it eating up my already pitiful looking tank. So you think that the POR will still stick after acetone? Hmm.
Dave... I have chain (finally), I'll get some phosphoric at lowes I guess... do I need to dilute it? With the metal ready it said to just pour it in there... not sure if the same is true for phosphoric. Not sure if I can find a buddy... you think you could drop down here tomorrow and help me?  ;D
I finally have my tank sealed... I made a cover for the petcock and fill hole using some roofing rubber and wood... works well.
QBS... window sash chain? I've never seen that before... I'll check for it at lowes.

I know not to do the bolts and screws again... I had to pick them out one by one with a flexible grabber cause genius here happened to drop in a bunch of stainless steel ones. I still missed one and sucked it up with the vacuum cleaner.
Thanks everyone.
Tiff
Tiffanator
First time restorer

Lucky

  • Visionary Grand Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 9877
  • That's my baby!!
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2007, 08:04:49 AM »
I'm off work tomorrow if you need a buddy.  ;D

Good Luck!

David

So where were you last week? my knuckles are dragging on the ground now, but when the PRETTY GIRL needs some help...

That's it, your out of the He-Mans Woman Haters Club!  ;D ;D ;D
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

Tiger

  • Visionary Grand Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 6217
  • Tiger, tiger burning bright...
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2007, 08:16:36 AM »
 :) Girl, I gotta say that I admire your tenacity to your gas tank project and have to think that, at this rate, your going to have a Vision to be proud of... 8)
However, I worry that this gas tank could burn you out... :-\ I, for one, would hate to loose your enthusiasm on this forum... 8)
Another way, would be to get another gas tank, that will allow you to carry on with the other things that need to be done to the "V" and "do" your original gas tank as and when...Just my 2 cents worth.

              8).......TIGER....... 8)
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming HOOOOYA lets go again baby !!!!!!

'82 Vision, Pearl Orange finish, lots of up-grades!!!

Lucky

  • Visionary Grand Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 9877
  • That's my baby!!
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2007, 08:18:22 AM »
Plus Dave wants yopu to visit...
 ;) ;)
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

Tiffanator

  • ROV Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Crazy Southern Chick
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2007, 12:41:29 PM »
Uh oh Dave... you're in trouble.  :o
Tiger... I have worried the same thing myself... and there have been times dealing with this tank that I have wanted to take the bike and throw it off a cliff... well.. the tank for sure, maybe not the whole bike. The thing is... if I look at EVERYTHING that needs to be done to this bike I just get really overwhelmed and feel like I'll never be able to do it all. I have no idea how to do most of the stuff that needs to be done like wheel bearings, head bearings, starter clutch bolts, fork rebuilds and so on and so forth. I have to take things one at a time cause if I get too many things started... I never finish any of them. However... I find myself laying there at night thinking about all the cool stuff I can do to this bike... I have a lot of things planned and I hope I get to do them all. The good thing is that I can do them a little at a time while the bike is on the road.

As for my progress... I went out hunting phosporic acid this morning and what do you know... no one has it. So I hit up Advanced Auto Parts and find a metal conditioner/rust eater liquid that seems A LOT like metal ready and contains phosphoric acid. So I bought two quarts. I cut up 2 lenghts of big meaty chain and about 5 lengths of swingset chain and put them in the tank with 1 quart of the rust eater stuff. I have been shaking it ever few minutes for as long as I can til my arms nearly fall off... then leaving it to sit in different positions. It says to sit a minimum of 1 hour... I'm thinking I'll leave it in there for about 3 then check and see how its working.

Once time is up on that stuff I'll hit it with a heat gun that I snagged from my parents' house and POR it... sparkly clean or not.
Next possible problem. The kit I have gave me 8 ounces of POR... that just really really doesn't seem like enough. Anyone used that amount successfully? Should I go ahead and order another 8 ounces?

Thanks
Tiff.
Tiffanator
First time restorer

Tiffanator

  • ROV Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
  • Crazy Southern Chick
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2007, 12:42:23 PM »
Oh.. and Dave... I have a spare bedroom and make some mean lasagna... your wife is welcome to come too since I'm sure she doesn't trust you.  ;)
Tiffanator
First time restorer

ironb12s

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • 1982 XZ550RJ - in pieces for paint
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2007, 12:47:59 PM »
Thanks so much everyone.

ironb12s... One the bottle it says do not leave the metal ready in for more than 2 hours. I don't know why it says that, but I'm not going to risk it eating up my already pitiful looking tank. So you think that the POR will still stick after acetone? Hmm.

Thanks everyone.
Tiff

No, I said reapply the PHO after the acetone.  Get the Kreem out, and acetone does that.  Then etch and remove rust, the PHO does that.  The 2 hours mystifies me, PHO isn't an acid like Hydro or Sulfru, it won't degrade the metal unless you take the same approach like you did with the acetone that made the J-B melt.  I think the dilution of the PHO with the Kreem kit was 16:1, but I'd have to verify that.  I made a 4-5 gal bucket using a quart of PHO from the Kreem kit.

What is "metal ready"?  Moreover, I never saw any rust, after I'd PHO'd and rinsed my tanks prior to lining them.
*************************************
SOC-UK 19744*MIG 821*IBA 9200*AMA 580210
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Book: "She don't look like much."
KayLee: "'Ah-uh, she'll fool ya."

ironb12s

  • ROV Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • 1982 XZ550RJ - in pieces for paint
Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2007, 12:56:37 PM »
Tiff, you don't need to "shake" the tank, just tilt it from one end to the other, and let the chain slide over the areas that you need to strip.  That shouldn't wear you out nearly as quickly.
*************************************
SOC-UK 19744*MIG 821*IBA 9200*AMA 580210
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Book: "She don't look like much."
KayLee: "'Ah-uh, she'll fool ya."