Author Topic: Ready to POR, still rust in tank  (Read 31241 times)

ironb12s

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2007, 06:39:14 PM »
ironb12s... easy to get out? I hate those things. I'll see if I can find a way to just pull the tops and blow air through the passages to clear them up. Maybe some crud came loose on the second dunk and clogged them up.. but I thought I made sure all of those were clear. Never hurts to just run another check though.
I'm going to get it. I'm too close now.

Gotta love that tenacity!  Yes, easy to get out with the removal of the cables and hoses, two clamps on the intake boots...try removing the carbs of my GSF1200S sometime to compare.   ;) 

If you can, as ICRC, do as you are saying with the tops.  Just ensure that the top half of the carbs are clear of debris...let us know what and if you find anything, it may point to something more serious.  Oh, and don't rush it, take your time.  You've come too far to make a mistake and bollux things up, now.  If you don't get the carbs out completely, tap on the bowls to dislodge a possibly stuck needle valve.  There can't be much left in the way of the fuel getting to the bowls and accel pump...heck get a fitting and bypass the fuel pump temporarily.
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kwells

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2007, 07:56:55 PM »
It is possible that the float needles were put in upside down and now arent allowing the bowls to fill.
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ironb12s

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2007, 08:36:20 PM »
It is possible that the float needles were put in upside down and now arent allowing the bowls to fill.

I doubt it strongly, the needles in upside down wouldn't stop anything...  Square peg over a round hole, as it were.   :)  Have you ever witnessed such a feat?   ;)
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kwells

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2007, 09:15:15 PM »
it potentially would cause exactly that.  It is just that it would be unlikely to happen. 
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Tiffanator

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2007, 09:21:35 PM »
It is possible that the float needles were put in upside down and now arent allowing the bowls to fill.

I doubt it strongly, the needles in upside down wouldn't stop anything...  Square peg over a round hole, as it were.   :)  Have you ever witnessed such a feat?   ;)
Yes it will... ask me how I know...  ;)

Actually I think you were both right... one was in backwards, one was stuck. The one that was in backwards, flipped it around and score, it worked. The one that was stuck... well... it took 3 tries and finally the compressed air set it straight.
Now... further down the line. I have 2 bowls full of fuel and nothing come out of the nozzle. Pulled the tops off again... 4th time for the front, 2nd time for the back. Pulled the nozzles out.. blew air through both of them. I put the back one back in and I get a dribble. I checked to be sure that fluid was actually getting to the nozzle. Front carb.. no dice... something is stuck. Rear carb... its getting it.. not very quickly, but its getting it.  So now I have 2 carbs full of fuel and I can't get the little thingymabob out to unstick it. Any suggestions?

Still at it... gas fumes are GOOD.
Tiff.
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YellowJacket!

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2007, 09:34:38 PM »
You're a Respiratory Therapists nightmare.  ;D  ;D  ;D

David


Living the dream - I am now a Physician Assistant!!   :-)

Lucky

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2007, 09:38:09 PM »
I have NEVER seen so many 'response' posts in a single day on this Forum! did i miss a pic of you in a bikini holding a wrench & smeared with grease or something??  :o :D

Tiff, don't bother with air, it's too dangerous spraying air & fuel everywhere your asking for trouble (air + fuel & a stray ignition source = a very bad day) plus it won't prove anything.

do this instead:

let the bike sit with the petcock on "prime" for ten min or so (you've already done this) then open one of the drain screws (left side round phillips screw next to 10mm hex main jet cover). you should have fuel comming out the drain hose under the bike.  have something ready to catch the fuel (glass pickle jar, etc)  close the drain screw and repeat for the other carb.

this proves weather or not you are filling the carbs with fuel.

--if you get fuel out of both carbs, crank the throttle 10 +  times to fill the accelerator pump & lines with fuel. by then you should get gas squirting into the carbs.

--if you didn't get fuel out of the rear carb, the rear inlet needle is stuck & you will never get the accel nozzels to squirt. the fill from the rear bowl.

--if you got fuel only out of the rear carb then the front inlet needle is stuck.  

--if you didn't get fuel out of either carb then either both needles are stuck and/or the fuel pump is blocked. (you already know you have fuel flowing out the petcock)

--if you rig your pony tank hose right to the inlet (forward) fitting on the fuel pump, fuel should flow right thru it (put a long hose on the out fitting ("T") of the fuel pump to a jar to catch the fuel.  if you don't get fuel out, the pump is clogged/misassembled.

--if you get fuel out of the pump that only leaves the needle as stuck closed.  dap the sides of the bowls & that might dislodge them.

or, remove the choke rod (pull the plastic air dam out of the bike, loosen the screws that hold the choke rod to the plungers & slide the rod out forward & out.  remove the 6 screws holding the carb tops on & gently remove the tops of the carbs (yes with the carbs on the bike)

a magnetic scewdriver helps, & be careful to not drop the screws down the throat of the carb.  if you do, DON"T turn the throttle, just fish them out with a magnet or needle nosed pliers.

once you have the tops out, turn them over, operate the floats & watch to see the needle is moving up & down with the floats.

i'll be home all night & all day tomorrow. i'll pm you my # if you have any questions, just call. (wife doesn't mind, she knows who i am, lol)

YOU CAN DO THIS, WE CAN HELP!
--Lucky
« Last Edit: November 18, 2007, 08:24:52 AM by Lucky »
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2007, 10:47:13 PM »
Lucky... WHERE WERE YOU 3 HOURS AGO!  :P Thanks for all the tips... I learned them.. the.. uh.. hard way.
Sorry.. no pic of me in a bikini holding a wrench, but if you guys help me get this bike running I may be able to pull that off for you.
So.. I just have two words... I WIN! Lets see if I can get the problems in line in order of them being found and resolved...
1. Not getting fuel anywhere... traced it to getting fuel TO the carb.. but not IN the carb. Rear carb needle upside down, front carb needle stuck.
2. Have fuel in carbs (and flowing down side of engine through overflow hole) but NO squirt from accellerator nozzle. Take the tops BACK off and pull the rear accellerator nozzle, blow some air through it and its ok. Check to see that fuel is getting TO the accellerator nozzle. It is... put the nozzle back in... presto.. stream of fluid. To the front. Pull accellerator nozzle and the brass bit spits out the copper tube..  yay.. broken solder joint. Go get the soldering gun and go round and round with it... still clogged.
3. While I"m waiting for the nozzle to come down from a billion degrees after soldering it I check to see if fuel is even getting there... uhm... no. Weight is jammed in there. I try to clean out around it and pry it lose with a tiny little tool... not happening. Ask here and right after that check the diagram in the service manual on Lucky's CD. I notice that there is a nipple that feeds that nozzle... hmm... Pull the hose off the nozzle, hook the air up to it... put my finger hovering over the hole and blow. Clean out the hole a little and blow... pry on the weight and blow and POP... it hits me in the finger. Look down in the hole and its all corroded. Clean up the sides of the hole and blow one last time to remove the ball and it pops out and rolls down beside the engine.. yay. Found it pretty quickly, cleaned the hole and replaced everything.. works a charm. Got my now touchable nozzle and pop it in... no dice.
4. Ok... so I already knew this was a problem and was working on it... but it was another step in the process. The nozzle is just jammed... I have no idea why. So I get a single strand of copper wire from a braided #14 wire I have... straighten it up and run it through the tiny hole in the end of the nozzle.. its a perfect fit and it is hard to push through.. then breaks lose.. booyah! Put the nozzle on and it works! WOOO!

So now I've got that part of the carbs done... I tried and tried to crank it but it just wouldn't catch and run more than about 5 seconds. I didn't have a proper pony tank so I'm going to make one tomorrow. I just put the big tank on there and tried and I had gas spitting everywhere and don't know why. I'm tired... but it was a good day.

Thanks everyone for all the super fast responses and help. You are all awesome.
Tiff.
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Night Vision

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2007, 10:57:06 PM »
ah, you're so close... good work on the accel nozzes... but sounds like the carbs are still cruddy..... if you had a sticky float needle and a gunked up ball and weight.... you still have some work to do  :-\
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
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arfa vmax

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2007, 07:21:27 AM »
reading all this with interest and dread :o,about to pull my carbs down to fit new needles,was only going to get some spray carb cleaner but will have to find some dip.waiting with baited breath to see the outcome of this,better than any suspence novel,best of luck

Lucky

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2007, 08:24:01 AM »
I have NEVER seen so many 'response' posts in a single day on this Forum! did i miss a pic of you in a bikini holding a wrench & smeared with grease or something??  :o :D

Oh wait, maybe that was H2O...   ;D ;D ;D
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ironb12s

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2007, 11:52:20 AM »
Tiff, I know you don't want to read this, but I fear another dip of the carbs is needed, with more of them taken apart than the previous 2 times they were dipped.  The fact that you found crud and corrosion indicates that previous attempts were unsuccessful in cleaning them thoroughly, so plan to dip them once more.  Heck, some folks here have had to dip their's 3-4 times, and if this bike had been sitting for as long as you think it was, it would be no surprise.  Gas left anywhere too long will turn to shellac, and gum up the works that it is in.    :(  Plan to disassemble the carbs as much as you can before they are dipped, that way you can verify the installation of jets and needles (this should've been done on a prior dip).

On the bright side, get them dipped, run your check off of the motorcycle with your pony tank, and work everything out before you remount them, you should be golden at that point.  Tank is sealed, petcock is working like it should with no leaks, pump seems to be okay, one more task before she should run.   ;)
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Tiffanator

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2007, 11:55:05 AM »
I have NEVER seen so many 'response' posts in a single day on this Forum! did i miss a pic of you in a bikini holding a wrench & smeared with grease or something??  :o :D

Oh wait, maybe that was H2O...   ;D ;D ;D
HAHAHAHA... nice.
Okie Dokie... update for you guys. Made me a pony tank and hooked it up. The bike will run with the choke on, but it won't idle. I'm thinking lots of carb adjustments to come. It also spits gas all over the place out of the overflow while its running. Again, I'm thinking this is a carb adjustment issue.
I'm going to set everything to the stock settings and go from there.
Thanks everyone for the help.
N_V and ironb12s... for the first soak I took out the weight and ball... for the second soak they wouldn't come out so I left them in... I think thats where my problem came about. I also didn't run anything in the accellerator nozzle.. and didn't have a compressed air gun at the time so nothing really got blown out.  If it keeps acting up I'll pull them and dunk them again. I'm trying to avoid that. For the first soak I took out everything that I could get out.. I mean.. EVERYTHING. I stripped them down to bare shells and a bunch of little bits and bobs everywhere. The second I didn't strip the that far back.
Arfa vmax... go get Berryman's carb dip... it is SO SO SO much easier than trying to clean everything with the spray and a rag. You just load the parts up on the little basket they provide and drop them in the can.. leave them for 30 minutes, then rinse and blow with compressed air... done. My problem was that I didn't do the compressed air bit... so I still have problems. And... my Vision is the spawn of Satan... so everything that can go wrong... will.
Ok.. back to work.
"If it ain't worth doing the hard way.... "   ;D
Tiff.
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ironb12s

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2007, 12:11:13 PM »
If you have fuel spewing from the overflow tubes, the bowl needles are not sealing.  That means new needle valves and seats, possible bad floats (if they sink in the bowl they won't seal).  Had you rebuilt these carbs, or gone with them as they were with cleaning?  I'd think the latter, based on what you're finding now...  :-\

I just don't see how you're gonna get this problem fixed without pulling the carbs out...  ya, PITA that it is, butt in the long run, worth it.  Shoot, I pulled the carbs (4) out of my Bandit in order to replace the drain screws...and give them a cursory shot with carb cleaner.    ;)
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Tiffanator

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #74 on: November 18, 2007, 01:54:49 PM »
I just cleaned the carb, didn't replace any jets or needles. I think I was getting fuel from the overflow because i was holding the tank higher than the level of the carbs, once I lowered it down and let the vacuum suck the fuel out instead of it just flowing the squirt stopped.
Ok... I adjusted the idle screw and the bike idled for quite a while on its own. My findings.. I have a white smoke coming up from where the header connects to the cylinder on the rear cylinder. After idline for a minute or so I cut the bike off and had more white smoke coming from inside the cylinder, floating up through the carb throat. Needless to say I stopped there.  I checked the temp guage and it was barely warm. One thing I did and I may get reamed for this... I drained the coolant by pulling the plug at the bottom of the thermostat housing. I went to put new coolant in and upon taking off the radiator cap... its full of coolant. I thought maybe by running the bike it would pull the coolant down and I could fill it up... no such luck. Now there is probably a big air gap in there that's going to give me major problems. Urgh.
I'm going to go read up on all this before I really kill this bike... yeah yeah... too late now.
Tiff.
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Night Vision

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2007, 03:01:16 PM »
quick!  :o
check your oil... drop some out and check the colour
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
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if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


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Lucky

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2007, 04:11:02 PM »
smoke coming from strange places is very normal on a bike that has sat god knows how long.  i just replaced the o-rings on the chrome coolant tubes & have white smoke from the radiator, & sveral other places.  as the engine heats up & the coolant evaporates (which is hard to do) you get smoke from anywhere it sat, even if you whipe it off.

plus you have condensation in the exhaust & engine nooks & crannies which will take time to cook off.

having coolant in the radiator after draining from the bottom bolt is completely normal as well. to properly top off the coolant (which you need to do) leave the cap off (cool engine) and remove the bolt on the metal coolant tube under the airbox (forward front frame where the 2 sensors are)  i used my pony tank to fill the coolant thru this hole, (plus i filled it at the radiator first)  this is the fill spot everyone talks about 'burping' the cooling sustem.

when your done, run the engine till the fan comes on.  then pull the tank & airbox & with the engine off, just crack that bolt again. you may or may not get air then coolant out the bolt.  if you get air, let it push out till it's coolant. if it's  all coolant that's good, tighten the bolt, your done.

--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2007, 04:35:30 PM »
N_V... that was something I was worried about. I will check the oil just to be sure.
Lucky... thanks. At first I figured it was a leave or some goo burning up down there with the engine finally getting warm for the first time in at least 4 years.
I'll follow your steps for topping off the coolant. That just puzzled me when it didn't all drain.. but then I read the instructions on draining the system and you have to pull out several bolts to get it all out. From what I saw the coolant looked good.

Oh.. and Dave... I'm everyone's worst nightmare.
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ironb12s

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #78 on: November 18, 2007, 08:01:44 PM »
Let's go back for a moment, and review:

You've dipped the carbs twice, once fully disassembled and the second, not so much.  If you had dismantled the carbs the way that they should've been, with any and all rubber and plastic parts removed, you'd have removed the floats and the needles with their seats - there's an o-ring under the seat.  At that point, you would've caught the needles upside down or stuck, and the check ball for the accelerator pump would've been cleaned too.  That makes it obvious that you took the carbs only partially apart in your first try, and is why you've been finding these bits of stickiness, crud, and what have you.   :-\

At this point, that is moot, you've gotten beyond what was missed, at least nominally.  Butt, you should pull the carbs for one more dip, more thorough this time than either of the two previous attempts, before you give this bike a blessing to be roadable.   8)  As was stated in another thread not too distant, these carbs need to be spotless, or they will be trouble.

Don't rush it, you're very close to having the bike, aside from the tank being painted, on the road.  The forum is here to help you, as you've recognized and acknowledged.  If you take the time to do it right the first time, it'll be done in no time at all.   :) 
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Book: "She don't look like much."
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Tiffanator

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Re: Ready to POR, still rust in tank
« Reply #79 on: November 18, 2007, 08:40:29 PM »
ironb12s... trust me... I took apart EVERYTHING. I have hundreds of pictures to prove it. You weren't there so please don't tell me what I did and didn't do. When I put the needles back in I just put them in wrong. The carbs sat for a while between the two dips and from the latest dip to now. The reason the bike wouldn't idle is because the idle screw was set too low... because when I took it out to dip the carbs I didn't screw it in far enough.  For someone who hasn't seen their carbs or worked on them for a while you sure are vocal about it. I appreciate your advice but please believe what I tell you.

Anyway... I decided to take the bolt off the metal tube and top off the coolant. I proceeded to shear off the head of the bolt because it is rusted in place. So I pulled off the whole tube and will go to lowes tomorrow and get a tap to drill out and retap the bolt hole. Just another thing. I also noticed when I took the tube off it is rusted and slightly gunked, so I'll clean it up while its off.  The hoses are still very pliable, so I won't replace them. I will however inspect inside of them and if they looked gunked too I'll replace them and flush the system.
After that I decided to call it a day.
Thank you all for your help. The bike will idle now and revs nicely, but is pretty slow to return to idle once the throttle is closed. Any ideas on that? The butterfly valves close quickly but the engine takes a little bit to slow down. Also... once the bike has idled for a while and shut off it doesn't want to fire back up.
Tiff.
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