Ready to POR, still rust in tank

[Lucky]

BTW, if your getting cold temps there in Ga like we are in Tn, use very light oil for testing purposes...5w, or 10w-20...  it'll help the bike start easier.  just don't actualy ride the bike with that oil in it

[Tiffanator]

Thanks guys. I'll try those things.
Inane... Yes, I did put oil back in it. I just drained the oil out last night and called it a day. I'm headed to the store soon to get more oil. Thanks for the tip on the clutch, I'll do that.
H2O... thanks. When I originally got the bike some of the wires down there were swapped... I think something like the neutral switch wire and sidestand switch wire were crossed so the bike never knew it was in neutral. I got the wiring harness and went through every wire to make sure they were connected properly. However, I did learn that when you are putting the bracket back on that holds the gear lever it will pinch the wire for the oil pressure sensor, cause I did that and it mangled the wire.
Lucky... I'm really starting to think I'm a blonde deep down inside. I did figure it out.. only took.. uh.. how many months? He he.  ;D
I'll check the battery and put it on charge today while I do some other stuff... just to keep it topped off.
And... cold temps? I'm in south MS.. it was 28 Monday morning.. yesterday morning it was 64 and the high was something like 76. It never gets cold for long, and when it is cold my little tail is snuggled under a blanket with the heater on. I'm a wimp. Ha Ha.  :D Thanks for the advice though.. if it does actually get cold for more than an hour I'll keep that in mind.
Off to the store!
Tiff.

[Tiffanator]

Ok, was under the weather a few days so didn't get to work on the bike, but did think about possibilities and what you all have said.
So, just went out and checked the YICS that I sealed with red RTV and it is sealed for sure, put it back on the bike. Have the carbs back on (correctly assembled) and am getting a good stream of fuel from the accelerator nozzles. I pulled the starter apart, no oil, so put it back on.
Tried chasing down the problem with the oil pressure warning light and I'm thinking its a combination of the oil pressure sensor going out and not getting negative power to the light. I would check for current by placing the positive lead of my voltmeter to the sensor and the negative to the engine, sometimes I would get 12-14 volts, sometimes nothing. Then I checked current to the bulb, nothing. Checked positive on the bulb to the engine, again, sometimes 12-14 volts, sometimes nothing. How hard are these units to find? Is there a generic yamaha one or is this going to be a major task to track one down.
Now, back to what I was discussing. Good clean oil in the engine, good spark plugs, good carbs, good gas going through a fuel filter. Give the throttle 2 pumps and try to start... and its a toss up for what will happen.
1. The engine starts, revs a little if I have it choked, and dies.
2. The engine almost starts, makes a loud clack, and dies, puffs of white smoke come up from the carb, sometimes front, sometimes back.
3. Engine turns over, backfires shooting smoke up through the carb and farts out the tailpipe.
4. This one is new... engine turns over once or twice then starter spins freely. It started doing this more often.
There may be some other interesting ones, but these are the main things that happen. The starter is not turning fast and sometimes seems to almost get bogged down. I checked volts while starting and they stay pretty much between 12-14, only dropping to 10 when the starter gets kinda bogged.
Comments? Advice? Offers to burn the bike at the stake cause its obviously possessed?
Tiff aka... my bike farts.

[Lucky]

I think your not getting enough speed out of your starter, try it jumped to a non running car & report back.

probably also need some carb tuning (pilot & synq)
--Lucky

[inanecathode]

Does your accelerator pump work? If so, give the throttle a few twists before starting it choked. If you already do this and its still not revving after its choked, while its running pop the throttle all the way open real quickly, just snap it. If you're having a lean condition (badly adjusted, clogged circuits) it should rev up great as long as you're snapping the throttle (using the accel pump as an idle circuit) every once in a while. If it almost immediately bogs and dies, you're running too rich at idle and you should try no choke/accelerator pump start (just snap the throttle and start it with no choke) doing this should tell you whats wrong with the fueling (it IS a fueling problem if you were guessing :))

Make sure the yikes lines arent leaking.

Its probably pretty easy to find an oil pressure sensor, i havent actually checked but i cant imagine yamaha making a one off sensor for the vision.

That white smoke is gasoline vapor, if its atomized well enough it makes visible vapor like a cloud :) sometimes that can mean you're too rich, but almost all the time its just unburnt fuel that had entered the intake manifold/chamber, and has been burped back out. Totally normal :)

The backfire is also normal. Sometimes theres too much fuel vapor hanging around (as in it isnt running and doesnt have the pressure to suck/push vapors around well enough) in the intake/exhaust systems and a stray flame front/ember/spark ignites the vapor. Unless your ignition timing (basically impossible) or your valve timing (it would barely run/limp) are totally off, its normal. (your ignition/valve timing is fine btw :P)

The starter freewheeling is probably almost totally normal. The starter in my car does that sometimes as well. Sometimes the planets/stars/yamaha gods arent aligned right and the starter clutch doesnt grab, if its not happening all the time i wouldnt worry about it. It could also mean your starter clutch is starting to wear out. Thats also normal, honestly i wouldnt worry about it. Its not in the scope of what you're trying to fix at the moment.

You're probably running low on juice is why the starter is bogging down. Its kind of hard to tell with just volts if a battery can support cranking or not. Its more about available amperage than voltage. By the time one would say "its dead jim" with just looking at voltage, its probably way past the point of 'its dead jim' with amperage. Heres what you do. Take your mom's car battery out of her car, and connect that in parallel with your bikes battery (jump it with the car battery). That'll give you plenty of reserve amps so you can crank and crank and crank. Motorcyle batteries are tiny, they're tiny only because they have to fit in somewhere. They're really only designed for a well running bike that only takes a few seconds of cranking to start. Extended cranking nukes them extremely fast. Car batteries arent supposed to maintain extended cranking, but they certainly can, especially with a motorcycle starter.

Cranking amps are pretty vital, especially if the engine isnt it really good shape (out of shape, hasnt ran in a while and so forth) you have to have enough left over power to run the tci properly (not sure what a vision electronic ignition circuit needs, but i know a car is around 10.5 volts or so minimum) and to fire the coils properly (if theres not enough primary voltage you'll get a weak spark). This makes a huge difference if you're going to light off an imperfect mixture or not. Its also vital to cranking speed. Though not as important as diesels, you do have to meet a minimum amount of compression in a minimum amount of time to properly fire a gas engine. If you have low cranking amps (battery is dead/dieing) it doesnt have to click-click-click to not start. What you're dealing with in your case if you have a weak battery is a crappy mixture (not tuned right), a crappy spark (low primary voltage), and crappy compression.

My advice? Get a car battery hooked up to it. Do the accelerator pump test (snap it full/idle whilst its running and see how it acts), and try every combination of throttle/choke combinations you can (full choke no throttle, full choke full throttle, no choke no throttle etc)

[Rick G]

Tiff, probably , whats happening is  A: its a little out of tune B: its still asleep (hasn't run in a long time) B: voltage is dropping below 10 v while cranking.  C: its probably cold where you are, and Visions don't particularly like cold starts.
So do like Inane says ,hook up a car battery (from a nonrunning car)  and  try again.

My first Vision was bought in early march in MN. 1999 . It was asleep . So I jumpted it from the previous owners pickup , then  pulled the gas tank and the air box top , and poured a jigger of gas in each carb.
She hacked and farted on the first try , on the second try it started and with difficulty stayed running . It ran  and I was satisfied , so I bought it .

[tben]

Tiff you're soooo close. Mine does all those things until I get just the right start and she fires up. I had quite a backfire at 5:30 this morning getting her started before work (making friends with the neighbors ::)). Keep up the good work and have a great Christmas. ;D

[h2olawyer]

Ah yes, the legendary Vision afterfire.  Makes a 12 gauge sound wimpy!  Who lit that M-80 anyway???  I had heard stories of this phenomenon but never experienced it until early last Summer, when helping inanecathode get his V running.  Sure glad we were outside or else I'd be deaf today!

H₂O

[Rick G]

When I lived in OR. I had the Vision in the carport,  with the exhaust facing the back wall . the battery was on its way out and while trying to start it, it shot a foot of flame from the top pipe  (Macs)  and bounced the explosion off of the wall and out into the Moble home park, for all to marvel at and enjoy. I had a meaninfull conversation with the owners wife  , while I tried to explain the  phenominon.

[YellowJacket!]

Aint nothing sweether than a double barrel MAC backfire.  ;D

I found that mine backfires more when my battery is crappy.  I had a bad battery earlier this year.  It would read 12 volts but just wouldn't crank and ended up having a bad cell.  A new battery fixed the problem.  Boy, I'll tell you though, it'll wake the dead at 5:00am getting ready for a morning ride to work and it lets go with an epic backfire.

David

[Rick G]

H20 is correct, in calling it after fire.  Back fire comes out of the carbs.

[Tiffanator]

Me again. Had some success today I think. After much tweaking and fiddling... I found out my fire-die problem was none other than... I hadn't pushed the plug cap down tight on the rear cylinder... DOH! Secured it down tight and VROOM! That was last night. This morning I pushed her out of the shed and into the bright sunshine and fresh air. Had a touch of trouble getting her to fire up again but once she did it was all good from there. Did find a coolant leak where I replaced the burp bolt housing. Tightened down a clamp and it was solved. Tweaked the carbs using the mixture screws and idle screw... then hooked up my homemade manometer and synced them pretty darn close, then set the idle speed again.
Few problems arose though...
I revved it a few times and sometimes it was slow to return to idle... other times it just plain didn't, I had to shut it off because it hung out around 2-4k rpm. This was with no YICS attached, I guess the hoses weren't plugged off completely... I'm hoping they weren't.
Now for the interesting one. I popped it down into first on the center stand... and with the clutch IN the bike is in gear... meaning... the rear wheel is spinning. I touch it with my foot... no dice.. its engaged. I tried adjusting the clutch some at the handlebar with no luck.  Any ideas? This is a new clutch cable because my other one was siezed.

Ok, I have the YICS box soaking in some RTV to get sealed up again after I accidentally put 90psi into it to test it and blew the seal... oops.
Still not getting an oil pressure warning light. Going to be looking for one on ebay I think.
Oh... when does the fan cut on? I had the engine temp 3/4 of the way through the green and the fan still didn't cut on. I'm about to install a switch on it now.

Final note... an Ipod is the greatest purchase EVER! Nothing keeps me motivated to work like some upbeat music. So nice. Why have a not bought one before now.
Tiff.

[inanecathode]

Adjust your cable so that its totally slack, then adjust it until theres 1/16th of an inch of play at the clutch handle. It should work alright at that point. What you're probably dealing with is crapped up plates that have sat for god knows how long. With your weight on the bike, once you pop it in gear it shouldnt take off on you. Just make sure your clutch cable is adjusted right.
I had sticky plates with mine when i first got it going, i had to tighten up the cable quite a bit, then after a time i noticed it was slipping a bit so i returned it to the normal 1/16th position. Now it works fine.
1) Adjust the cable so theres 1/16th of play at the handle
2) Sit on the bike, try to ride it
3) If it just dies when you put it in gear (sticking clutch) adjust the cable tighter and tighter until it wont stick anymore, but isnt so loose it wont engage at all
4) Ride it around a little while (just squid it around the block a few times)
5) Adjust the cable back down to where it should be over time

That should do ya :D
You have it easy heh, my bike was actually seized, i thought it was a bad clutch pack :o (i unseized it though ;))

As for the slow return to idle, i was having that pretty bad. Nearly tore all my hair out over it. Turns out i had extremely bad intake boots. For you, its probably just not properly sealed yikes ports. Checkers (oreilys, napa etc) should have little packs of vacuum caps, just stick some on the ports and you should be golden. Clamp them to be sure if you want.
If your mix is good, and your sync is good, its probably a vacuum leak. Make sure your intake boot clamps are tight, and theres no serious cracks on the boots themselves. Your yikes ports should be sealed tightly, and you should have all new vacuum lines. 25 year old rubber always leaks.
Spray some carb cleaner around the intake boot-intake port gasket, then on the boots themselves, then  on the fittings for the yikes and the fuel pump. After that, shoot some on the carb-intake boot seal, this was where my biggest leak was.

That should get you going.


Edit:
As for the yikes box. Honestly, 4 surrious, just toss it. Its honestly not worth the hassle. I've ridden both yikes and non yikes, and if theres a difference it's tiny at best. Its just a driveability liability. If you really want a yikes, you can make yikes cans out of tiny wd40 bottles.

[YellowJacket!]

Final note... an Ipod is the greatest purchase EVER! Nothing keeps me motivated to work like some upbeat music. So nice. Why have a not bought one before now.
Tiff.

Heh heh heh....  I like my Zune better.  ;D

Good point though.  Music makes work better.

As for the clutch, rock the bike back and forth a bit to move the oil around inside the case.  Clutch may just be stuck and need some working out.

You'll get a more detailed answer shortly though, Im sure.  ;D

David

[Tiffanator]

Thanks guys... went back out to try to play with the bike some more.. it wouldn't crank. I'm thinking it needs a new starter, this one turns painfully slow. I took it completely apart earlier today and it was full of some black dust, no oil though. I figured it was just the new brushes getting worn down. I cleaned it up and put everything back together, still spinning slowly. The battery is good, even pulled the battery out of my boat and hooked it up, still slow spin. Then I tried turning the key off and putting juice straight to the positive terminal of the starter, still spins slow.
Didn't get the switch hooked up for the fan, going to put that on the agenda for tomorrow.
While the bike was running there was smoke coming from interesting places... I think some 3 year old crickets and mice were getting cooked in there... haha. After a while the smoke cleared though.
Inane... I would have loved to have riden the bike a little... but running with a pony tank, no seat, and it not returning to idle I'm really not sure that would be the safest choice. I'm going to better cap up the YICS and see what happens.
Here's a question... when adjusting the mixture screws... I would set the idle at around 1300 rpm and start tightening, the engine would run crappy and I would start backing them out and counting per 1/4 turn. When I got farther out the idle would race up to 2k or more until I went back in. Is that supposed to happen?
Also, when syncing them it seemed like when they would get really uneven the idle would race, and when they got back to even it would slow back down. Bad thing? Good thing? I don't know what I'm doing?
Dave... I looked at the Zune... but I like the smaller size of the Ipod so I could slip it in my pocket and beat it up and lose it somewhere. I'm going to have to get a case for sure, I've had it 3 days and already scratched up the shiny chrome back... oops.


Tiff.

[inanecathode]

Heres how i tune:

Make sure both screws are 2.5 turns out
Start it
Set the idle around 1200
Turn the mix screw out/in until idle gets the highest it can be (Dont keep tightening/loosening past this point, you want to just touch the high rpm point, its possible to screw them WAY out and have the same idle, but crappy off idle charactaristics)
Adjust the idle back down
Turn the mix screw out/in until the idle SLIGHTLY drops (do it slowly, you'll hear it)
Set the idle back to 1200
Repeat above process for the second carb
Reset the idle to 1200
Turn off the bike
Plug in the sync tool
Make sure the sync tube is clamped good (just cross the hose over and squeeze it with pliers) otherwise it'll just suck the oil out
Adjust the sync until its kosher (sometimes it'll float one way or the other slowly, i just get it as close as i can)
Tighten sync rod, make sure the sync is still kosher, sometimes touching i messes it up
Adjust idle to 1200

At this point you should be cool. Idle racing and weird crap is normal when you're monkeying with the mix/sync. The sync rod basically opens/closes the throttle plate(s) so if its way out of wack it'll basically hold the idle open. The important part about the tuning process is keeping the idle where it should be.

PS
Real men use Creative players
er, nm

PPS
Forgot the starter part. Have you worked on the commutator of the starter at all? (Sectioned shaft the brushes ride on) 90 percent of the time slow cranking is because the commutator is all crapped up with carbon/pushed into each section. I chucked mine in a power drill and ran sandpaper across the commutator, cleaned it up real nice. If you've got slow cranking with power right to the starter, and brand new brushes, its probably the commutator/oil contamination.

[Lucky]

I'll touch on a couple of your Q's:
(sorry inanecathode), but do not attempt to drop the bike into gear, while running with the rear tire on the ground until you know it's safe.

reason:
if the clutch pack is frozen, droping the bike into gear, with the rear tire on the ground, even with the clutch pulled in, will cause it to violently lurch forward. weather you are on it or not, then you get to watch it either fall over, or drive away (yes, a bike will stay up & ride away without a driver)

instead:
with the bike off sit on the bike, (put yer seat back on first, lol) drop it into gear & try to roll the bike.  if the rear tire won't turn the clutch pack is frozen.  if you can roll the bike your all set, just need to adjust the clutch at the right cover.

fix:
if you can, tactfully get the heaviest person you can find who can sit on the bike & still be flatfoot, to rock the bike, in gear, forward & back untill the clutch 'pops'. all the while working the clutch lever randomply in & out.

my first Vision took me 5 min or so 'till it poped.

This fall, Cafe Vison took me 45 min of hard, violent, rear tire draging & rocking to finally free that mutha up, & when that clutch poped free, it was a loud hard 'Clack' (nope nothing broke, that's how it sounds). i was tired, lol

It may seem to take forever, but it'll free up, don't worry.

carbs:

adjusting the synq will change the rpms.  keep tweaking the idle stop screw (thumbscrew on the right side of the rear carb) WHILE tweaking the synq. to keep the idle at 1300 rpm.  remember, your #1 goal is to have the carbs even. it matters not if the vac level is high or low, as long as they are the same.

pilot adjustment:
get them close enough to allow the bike to run. set the synq, then tweak the pilot settings: in until it starts to run rough, out till starts to run rough, then center the adjustmet there plu 1/4 turn out.

then recheck the synq.
it's a back & fourth thing....

finally, after you find the vacuume leak that's causing the slow return to idle (assuming the carbs are now in synq) you will have to resynq & reset the pilots. fixing a vacuume leak will change both of those. (but you'll be getting good at those adjustments by then)

--Lucky

[Lucky]

to add to what Inanecathode said about the commutator, the white sections between the copper ones are called Mica (like the stone) and should be undercut lower than the level of the copper. mica is a soft stone & you can & should undercut the mica at every brush change (very profesional)  you can do this very easily with a broken off hacksaw blade.  you only need a few hundreths of an inch depth.

--Lucky

[inanecathode]

to add to what Inanecathode said about the commutator, the white sections between the copper ones are called Mica (like the stone) and should be undercut lower than the level of the copper. mica is a soft stone & you can & should undercut the mica at every brush change (very profesional)  you can do this very easily with a broken off hacksaw blade.  you only need a few hundreths of an inch depth.

--Lucky

Good call with the undercut, i did this with mine (just used a dental pick to scratch out channels, then used the end of a hacksaw blade like you said and cleaned it up a bit)

My problem was also some of the commutator sections were pushed/dragged into the next section (someone had previously monkeyed with it) so one section would leak voltage over into the next.

I would definitely clean out all the carbon you can get out of it, carbon is a conductor, and the more thats spread over everything the less voltage is used in the armature and ends up just leaking all over.

[Rick G]

lucky, all I do with a stuck clutch  is to paddle forward  and once its moving drop it in to 1st gear , while holding the clutch in . It will break loose with in 20 feet. Its a problem on all bikes that sit too long . (except maybe BMW's and Moto Guzzi's)