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Ready to POR, still rust in tank

Started by Tiffanator, November 10, 2007, 05:58:57 PM

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Tiffanator

Thanks everyone for the help.
For the clutch... I just put the bike in first and force the rear wheel to turn? If I remember correctly... less than a year ago when I went to get the bike my cousin banged it forward in gear to show that the engine wasn't seized. Now that's not to say the clutch hasn't gotten stuck since then. I will do that though and see what happens. I'll have to go dig the seat out of the loft in the shop... haven't really needed it lately. Only problem with the paddling and rolling is... well... I can barely get my feet down, and its a long push uphill in pinestraw to get to some concrete. I'll make it though.   ;D
For the starter... The copper on the commutator was pretty black with stuff... I took a regular pencil eraser and cleaned it all off, can't remember who gave me that tip but it worked brilliantly. The mica between is cut below the level of the copper and nothing is touching. Are the brushes supposed to be pushing hard on the commutator? I have to kinda move the brushes out of the way to slide it into place, which  means they are putting a good bit of pressure on the copper.
Carbs, I see its going to be a long process. Goal for tomorrow is to get the YICS plugged tight, check the carb boots for leaks, possibly coat them in more liquid electrical tape, and try to get the bike started again.
Thanks guys.
Tiff
Tiffanator
First time restorer

inanecathode

Yeah, just put it in 4th or 5th and rock it back and forth with the clutch let out. Should break it free. No need to roll it around much just forwards and backwards.
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If you can't tell your friend to kiss your ass then they aren't a true friend.
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Lucky

my point with my clutch instructions is that it's usually simple, but even if it's tough, it'll still break free.

the eraser is a tip i've known forever i may have mentioned it...
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

Night Vision

Quote from: Tiffanator on December 29, 2007, 10:19:45 PM

Are the brushes supposed to be pushing hard on the commutator? I have to kinda move the brushes out of the way to slide it into place, which  means they are putting a good bit of pressure on the copper.


The brushes are spring loaded and yes, they have to retract so you can get the cummutator into the brush plate. You kinda angle the cummutator and use it to push them in.
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

QBS

Ricks' got the right idea.  Place the bike facing down an incline, start the engine and let it idle, pull in the clutch lever, paddle the bike down the incline, push down on the gear shift lever(thus placing the bike into first gear), rev the engine.  This should break the clutch loose and you can then operate the bike as usual. 

Tiffanator

Ok, so I got the clutch issue sorted, I dropped it off the center stand and it was fine, apparently the wheel just likes to turn when in first with the clutch pulled but when its on the ground it doesn't move. So, discovering that, I took the bike for a little spin. It was only about 50 yards but it was a milestone. It moved under its own power, that's good. So anyway.. I went back out this afternoon to check the carbs again and maybe ride it a little more. Tuned the mixture screws, set the idle, hooked up the manometer and synched the carbs. Everything seemed to be running well. The idle wasn't hunting, it wasn't racing, it would return to idle when revved. It was time to ride. Dropped it down off the center stand and it died. Fired it back up, idle was a little low so I adjusted it up... popped it into first, started letting the clutch out, it died. Started it back up again, same thing.
Well then it wouldn't crank. It started making an occasional clacking noise when the starter turned. I put more gas in it and tried again. More popping and farting and two REALLY good afterfires... oh man, I'm sure the neighbors are putting together a petition to have me thrown out. At least I faced the pipes towards my house and not anyone else's. Battery started getting low so I pulled out my boat battery and gave it a jump... it fired up and the idle raced up to 4k and stayed there. Tried to adjust the idle down but was burning my finger on the engine. Shut it down, adjusted the idle, fired it back up... revved to 4k. Shut it off and adjusted more... same thing, this time I shut it down and was thanked by an earth shattering BOOM from the muffler. He he. I decided after that to put her away for the night... although it was very fitting being New Years Eve and all. I started the celebration early.
Anyway... what I learned.
1. Synching carbs is hard. I would get them perfect... shut the bike off.. crank it back up and they were off again. Or I would get them perfect, adjust the idle and they were off again. Pain.
2. If the starter isn't turning fast... its going to make some god awful farts and burps.
3. I still have some pretty ugly electrical problems. The bike really can't decide if its in neutral or not. Sometimes the light is on then it will just randomly go off... then comes back on.. then goes off. And of course it won't crank if the light isn't on unless I pull in the clutch.
4. The bike hates me. That's all that can be said. It is the direct spawn of satan.
5. I have no idea what is rattling around in there when I try to start it. It is not consistent, so there's no way to really tell.

So there I am. I guess its a matter of just continuing to tweak the carbs til I get it under control. The YICS is sealed, I know that. I sprayed cleaner and WD-40 all over the place and it never made a difference in the idle. I coated a small crack in the carb boot with more liquid electrical tape so its sealed up nicely.
Tomorrow I'm going to prime the tank.. at last. Would have done it today but found a spot I missed when I put the JB weld on, so had to do it and it is taking its sweet time curing up. Once I get it sanded I'll prime it just to get the bare metal out of the weather. It will stay like that til I figure out what I'm going to do for a real paint job.
Ok... enough of my rambling. I think I made progress the past two days.. if nothing else I annoyed the neighbors.
Tiff aka BOOM.
Tiffanator
First time restorer

tben

Tiff, great work! ;D ;D

About the bike dying when you shift into gear. I don't know if this helps you but my v which is in a similar state to yours does the same thing unless I let it warm up for about 5 min.
Three grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, something to love, and something to hope for.
-Joseph Addison

kwells

CHeck your sidestand switch as well.  If you suspect that it is no longer a functioning unit I would either get it working, replace it, or as a last resort cut the wire if it hasnt been done already.
...a vision is never complete.

www.wellsmoto.com

Rick G

Some of us old time visionaries figured out long ago that the "saftey circuit  was  a main source of problems .  I  removed  the sidestand switch, the clutch switch  and the  front brake light switch.in 2001
The sidestand switch as lived a hard life , for 25 years it has slathered in grease, road grime and water . like wise the clutch switch . there just too old to be reliable and they were cheap to begin with .

As for the  front brake light switch  , I find  it usefull to be able to  slow down and not reveal to motorplow and his cohorts that I may have been going a triffle fast.
Rick G
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there in lurks the skid demon
'82.5 Yamaha XZ550 RJ  Vision,
'90 Suzuki VX800, 1990 Suzuki DR350.
'74  XL350   Honda , 77 XL350 Honda, 78 XL350 Honda, '82 XT 200 Yamaha, '67 Yamaha YG1TK, 80cc trail bike

YellowJacket!

Hey Tiff,
Congratulations!  You are now a "Rider of Vision"....of sorts but it is a huge accomplishmnet.

A more fitting name woule be "BOOM chakalaka BOOM"....Had to throw the rattles in there too, you know.

I went through the same ordeal as you with the bike starting and quitting.  It was very frustrating.  I even got to the point of thinking my wife was going out into the garage and changing or messing with something to make sure I couldn't ride it.  Your mom doesn't have keys to your barn, does she??  ;D

You're getting closer.....

Happy New Year!!

David


Living the dream - I am now a Physician Assistant!!   :-)

Tiffanator

WHOA! Long post alert!

Ok... NOW I can call myself a Rider of Vision. Took the bike for a spin around the neighborhood, down to my bro's house to show off. Its an ugly little beast right now.. only one front turn signal, only one mirror, no plastics to be found anywhere, no rear tail light housing, a pony tank and funnel hanging from the handlebars, and a metal/JB weld/Epoxy putty/Bondo tank. The coolant bottle is outside the frame and the relays and "guts" are stuffed in but not mounted, battery is held on by duct tape. Yes... she's a right sight to see, but she runs, and WE got her there. Of course all of the above will be remedied during the restoration process, I just wanted to make sure the bike would indeed run and not blow up.
Now for how the bike runs... Well... The clutch needs to be adjusted, has a good bit of play in it. The suspension is quite soft, but coming from my Z with a suspension set up for track... i.e...  hard as a rock.. its a nice change. The tires need to go to the nearest dump. I noticed that once in gear with the engine running the bike did NOT want to go back to neutral... it was first or second.. no in between. Perhaps that is a clutch adjustment there... or maybe the bike just wants to GO and not sit still. Engine runs really well. Each time I would stop the idle seemed to drop a little more. I kept adjusting the screw back up to keep it around 1200-1300 rpms. Another round of carb adjusting may cure that. Once out on the open road though it seems to have good power for a 550 with nice get up and go. Feels like it wants to pull just a tad, I was putting more pressure on the handlebars with my left arm than right. Could this be due to added weight of the drive shaft? The bike is pretty loud for stock exhaust... could be that hole rusted in the right muffler though.  :-\
All in all... its a TOTALLY different animal than the Z. I think I mean that in a good way though. I'm used to an over the top aggressive riding style with most of my body weight resting on either my legs or arms as I lean over the handlebars. With the vision the riding style is more cruiserish, so I'm not bearing as much weight on my arms. I still can't flat foot the dang thing, I was really hoping for that. The first time I got it rolling and put my feet on the pegs my left foot landed on the center stand and my right foot flailed in mid air. Uhm... the pegs are much farther forward than I was expecting. Its comfortable, just something to get used to. This will be a good bike for the longer rides where my back usually starts aching on the Z.
It started out looking like it was going to be a crummy day cause I just couldn't get the bike to start. Nothing I tried helped. Then all of a sudden it roared to life and purred like a kitten.  Here's what I think happened with the racing RPMs... I found that if I push down too far on the carbs they sit too deep in the boots and the sync rod gets stuck on the bolt holding down the carb boot... this causes the throttle to either be difficult to open... or it sticks open just a tad. I noticed today when tinkering with the carbs that the sync rod was sticking. I think it got stuck open, so the bike would fire up, and the throttle was open a little and I didn't notice. WOO HOO.
Another interesting story... I had the bike on the center stand and it WOULD NOT CRANK. So.. in desparation I dropped it off the center stand and onto the sidestand because last night it started on the sidestand and not the centerstand. Yes, superstition I know... but whatever works. I try to crank it on the sidestand with no luck. So I just stand the bike up and balance it... wheel facing forward. After some work... it cranked. I'm sure it had NOTHING to do with the position it was standing in... just the position my mouth was in... forming curse words. Anyway... I yippee and decided to lean the bike onto the sidestand... when I do the idle races up to 4k and stays there. I stand the bike back up.. it goes back down. I did this a few times because... after all... I'm inherently stupid and can't believe stuff the first time. Lean the bike over.. idles at 4k.. stand it up... idles at 1300. Onto the center stand it goes, still idling at 1300. Shut it down and text a buddy of mine who works on cars. He calls me back and we start going over stuff. He says thats for sure a first for him. He tells me to check the throttle cable and sure enough... the throttle cable was binding and when the handlebars were turned to the left as is done when on the sidestand... it pulled the throttle open. Small adjustment there, problem solved.
The only thing that still worries me is the rattling and clacking when starting. Once the bike is started it purrs like a little fat and happy kitten, but starting it up is sometimes like shaking a metal coffee can full of big bolts and bullets. Any ideas?
Thanks for all the help...
"I would like to thank all the little people who got me this far" My academy awards speech.
The sidestand switch seems to be working properly, its the neutral switch that is a pain in my butt right now. It just randomly decides the bike isn't in neutral as I'm spinning the back wheel on the center stand.
Tiff.. aka click click... BOOM!  :o
Tiffanator
First time restorer

YellowJacket!

YYYEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAA!!  ;D  ;D  ;D

David


Living the dream - I am now a Physician Assistant!!   :-)

Rick G

Tiff, the neutral "dance"  is a learned accomplishment.  Adjusting the clutch free play is a good thing, and synthetic oil helps a lot . but the biggest thing you can do is shift into neutral BEFORE you come to a complete stop. Motorcycle gear boxes  (Except for a few of the 2007 models ) have sliding gears  utilizing dogs and slots . When the bike is moving the dogs will enter and exit the slots with ease , when not moving its much more difficult . ( Hummm , this sounds a lot like sex education!!!!)
practice make perfect!!  (what did I tell you??)   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Rick G
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there in lurks the skid demon
'82.5 Yamaha XZ550 RJ  Vision,
'90 Suzuki VX800, 1990 Suzuki DR350.
'74  XL350   Honda , 77 XL350 Honda, 78 XL350 Honda, '82 XT 200 Yamaha, '67 Yamaha YG1TK, 80cc trail bike

Tiger

 :) The neutral riding position of the "V" makes it a very comfortable machine to ride on long or short hop's.
The "soft" suspension you mentioned is a trait of the '82. However, a fork overhaul...Drain, strip down, washed in a solvent to clean out the crud and rebuilt using new seal's and fresh 15 weight oil will help a wee bit.
You can stiffen it up by useing slightly longer spacer's or installing air cap's, (6 - 8lb of air), and/or progressive front spring's to take the place of 25 year old one's will help big time.

Invest in a set of Avon tire's. They are great for safe handling and comfort...your mom will love them 8)

The more you ride the Vision the better she will run...Ride her hard and often :o ;D :D :D :D :D :D... ;)

                8).......TIGER....... 8)
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming HOOOOYA lets go again baby !!!!!!

'82 Vision, Pearl Orange finish, lots of up-grades!!!

inanecathode

"I found that if I push down too far on the carbs they sit too deep in the boots and the sync rod gets stuck on the bolt holding down the carb boot"

Weird, this was one of the problems i was having, same symptoms too, funky idle etc.
The vision riding position is alot more "doiky doik" than alot of newer bikes. Not that thats a bad thing, the monkey humping a football position gets me cramped up pretty quick.
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If you can't tell your friend to kiss your ass then they aren't a true friend.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

pullshocks

Way to go!  Reading about your progress really made my day.

Lucky

#236
QuoteI found that if I push down too far on the carbs they sit too deep in the boots and the sync rod gets stuck on the bolt holding down the carb boot... this causes the throttle to either be difficult to open... or it sticks open just a tad. I noticed today when tinkering with the carbs that the sync rod was sticking. I think it got stuck open, so the bike would fire up, and the throttle was open a little and I didn't notice. WOO HOO.
fix:
Pull the circlips off the synq rods (don't lose them they will FLY away, cup your hand over them, then they will only fall to the hardest place to reach on the engine).
then, carefully, without turning the ends on the rod, turn them over 180o so that what used to face the right side of the bike now faces the left. NOT forward vs rear. that's why their catching.

this will not change the synq.

Quoteyippee and decided to lean the bike onto the sidestand... when I do the idle races up to 4k and stays there. I stand the bike back up.. it goes back down. I did this a few times because... after all... I'm inherently stupid and can't believe stuff the first time
I so wish i had video of this!  :D

Quoteits the neutral switch that is a pain in my butt right now. It just randomly decides the bike isn't in neutral as I'm spinning the back wheel on the center stand.
so we are clear:
the neutral SWITCH controls the safety relay so that you can't start the bike in gear, but it's only a sensor telling the relay if your in neutral, & tripping the green light. it doesn't affect weather the rear tire spins in neutral.

the rear tire will spin in neutral on the center stand, especialy if the idle is too high, but as long as it doesn't pull you while stopped at a light, don't worry about it, it's Aby-something..oh yes, AbbyNormal! (it's fine)

and CONGRATS!, JOB WELL DONE!
--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

Tiffanator

Thanks for the tips everyone.
Rick... that is the exact opposite of my Z... I have more trouble trying to find neutral while the bike is moving than sitting still. Something I'll have to get used to I guess.
Tiger... fork strip down and clean is on the list of things to do. Just wanted to get her moving under her own power. Now I can feel better about tearing the bike apart and rebuilding.. knowing that it did at one time run and should run again if I do it right. I already have the seals and oil. I'm going to see how it does with new oil and if I don't like it I'll look into doing one of the things you mentioned to stiffen it up.
Lucky... do I really want to touch the carbs again? Haha. I'll do that.. very carefully. Although I found (the hard way) that most things I drop will eventually come to rest in the V of the engine, then I can get my little flexible grabber in there and retrieve it. It became comedy that the bike would increase idle if I leaned it over... I was laughing so hard. It just seemed perfect considering the road I have traveled with that bike.
The problem is the neutral position sensor I think. The green light will be on, then it randomly goes off. But I know the bike is still in neutral because I can manually spin the back wheel with the engine off. That's what I'm talking about. It thinks the bike is in gear but its really not, its just confused. I have cleaned the connections and checked the wire, made sure everything is tight but it still won't work.
Thanks all. Planning on riding it a little more tonight. I'm trying to burn off all the "sitting still" crud that has built up so that when I rebuild I won't be facing these problems again.
Tiff.
Tiffanator
First time restorer

Lucky

Tiff, the light has to be triggered by both the neutral switch and the safety relay.

You need to determine if the bulb is bad (easy to reach without taking anything apart) the relay or switch is bad (or a grounded wire).
Run the tests in either the Yamaha manual page 7-3 or the Haynes manual page 148 section 20 & page 149 section 22.

--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

Lucky

BTW, these relays aren't exactly waterproof, not after 25 years or so.  i've opened up lots of them that are loaded with crud.  Electronics cleaner will flush them out. on some of these relays you can unscrew the contact plates & lightly file or sand the contact points.  use your Ohm meter to test the coils.

--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black