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Any 550's out there running with no fuel pump?

Started by kiwibum, November 12, 2007, 02:02:07 AM

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kiwibum

I have a 550 (couple actually) now and about to strip the carbs for a clean before getting it going. I measured the height of the carbs to frame and it is the same on both the 400 & 550. So I'll probably try running with out the fuel pump when I put the carbs back in the 550 since the 400's don't have the pump at all. Is anyone out there happily running with out the fuel pump on their 550 or am I missing some vital information?

Tiger

 :) I think you will find that Brian_Mathewson has run his, without the fuel pump, for several year's without any problem's.

                  8).......TIGER....... 8)
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming HOOOOYA lets go again baby !!!!!!

'82 Vision, Pearl Orange finish, lots of up-grades!!!

Brian_Matthewson

Tiger's correct...I've been running without a fuel pump since 2001 with no problems...gravity has worked very well without interruption. You have to make sure you have enough gas to create enough pressure to run through the fuel line at a decent rate. In other words, if your gas only just covers the inlet in the tank, it will not fill the carbs. Put in a gallon & you'll be fine. I'm not sure how much reserve I have so I'm usually conservative about filling up...do it earlier rather than later.
Brian
1982 Vision rider from 1991 to 2012.

ironb12s

I don't recall a fuel pump on my 1982.  Butt, it's been a while...
*************************************
SOC-UK 19744*MIG 821*IBA 9200*AMA 580210
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Book: "She don't look like much."
KayLee: "'Ah-uh, she'll fool ya."

kiwibum

Great thanks, I normally fill up fairly quickly after hitting reserve on the 400 so I'm sure I'll be fine on the 550. I'll try it out and see how it goes. Bit less weight with out the fuel pump too:).

MikeScoot

There are not many recent contributions to this thread. Actually there are not many, recent or not.
So I wonder; are there many of us running without a fuel pump? Seems to me that if it will run without one then there is one less thing to go wrong and, perhaps, less gnashing of teeth.

Cheers,
Mike
Both Luthers had their dreams,
But I've just got one Vision.
Theirs got them into strifes,
Mine just takes me fishin'.

The Prophet of Doom

Sure, one less thing to go wrong, but I think you'll find the pump/regulator will help maintain consistent fuel bowl levels. 

If you are worried about shitty old diaphragms, there are quite a few visionaries running electric fuel pumps with good results.  Dry bowls will need a really long wait on PRI without a pump ( my pumpless XZ400 was a total pig to start from empty bowls ), about 20 cranks with stock pump, and nearly instant with electric. 

MikeScoot

#7
Cheers. Thanks for the info.

Just ordered a Polaris diaphram one that was mentioned in another thread.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Fuel-Pump-Polaris-ATV-Sportsman-325-400-500-600-700-Magnum-330-Outlaw-450-525/232078840545?hash=item3608fa12e1:g:NzgAAOSw9NdXrGhW

AU$22 to my door and no need for extra wiring. 

Will report exploits later.

Both Luthers had their dreams,
But I've just got one Vision.
Theirs got them into strifes,
Mine just takes me fishin'.

kiwibum

Quote from: MikeScoot on May 30, 2020, 02:34:26 AM
There are not many recent contributions to this thread. Actually there are not many, recent or not.
So I wonder; are there many of us running without a fuel pump? Seems to me that if it will run without one then there is one less thing to go wrong and, perhaps, less gnashing of teeth.

Cheers,
Mike

Hello Mike, interesting to see this post pop up after so long. It was so long ago I had to go check on the bike to remember if I had removed the pump, no pump on the bike. I ran my bike for 3-4 years fuel line direct to the carbs no problems at all. My bikes have been in storage since then, they might see the light of day in 2022 when they become vintage and cheaper to register!

As I mentioned with the 400, as soon as I hit reserve I filled the tank on the 550. Due to the two low points on the tank of the XZ, you are better to keep the tank full on these and top up more regularly than run to empty all the time, this reduces space for condensation and helps prevent issues with water and corrosion in the tank.

Hope that helps and happy riding.

MikeScoot

Yep. That's great information. I will certainly try it with no pump as simpler is better in my book and I want to rule out as many variables as possible.

Ha ha! Two years 'til vintage! Wow! I remember, as I'm sure do most of us, when the XZ was new - last century.

I'll take your advice about keeping the tank full too. There are many whacky design features on this bike and the tank is one of the whackiest. They might have been enjoying some 'odd' matsutake mushrooms that year in the design rooms. Either that or they were fast brewing their own shochu and working with evil hangovers.
Both Luthers had their dreams,
But I've just got one Vision.
Theirs got them into strifes,
Mine just takes me fishin'.

kiwibum

Yeah the tank really is a weird design/shape, it has a small capacity for how big it looks on the bike which is just one annoying feature of the bike. I still aim to build a sport cafe racer version out of one of mine, and making a better tank is on the long list of improvements!

MikeScoot

#11
Tricky job with the induction path. Still, they could have accomodated the same size filter in a much smaller airbox volume without too much trouble. There may have been method to their madness but, if so, it's over my head. I suppose you could make it some trick feature of your custom tank and have a big scoop/filter protruding through a tunnel in the tank! Having a tunnel throught it instead of a huge hollow for the airbox would give a LOT more capacity for fuel. Lolol a misfire back through the carbs could be dangerous though! lolol Might wind up eating an air filter! Seriously though, it would make better use of space especially if the tank had a slight hollow on the top to accomodate the filter set up.

Lolol couldn't get much more whacky than it already is.  Of course they got 'round that tank problem with the V-Max by moving it down near the swing arm and then went quirkily bonkers on the fake "tank" by hanging filthy big fake air scoops below it on either side! Ha ha ha. Can't say they didn't have a sense of humour! Spectacular when highly polished!
Both Luthers had their dreams,
But I've just got one Vision.
Theirs got them into strifes,
Mine just takes me fishin'.

The Prophet of Doom

Quote from: kiwibum on May 31, 2020, 03:07:56 AM
Yeah the tank really is a weird design/shape, it has a small capacity for how big it looks on the bike which is just one annoying feature of the bike. I still aim to build a sport cafe racer version out of one of mine, and making a better tank is on the long list of improvements!
Hey Steve, long time no see
You still in Rotovegas?  How's it all going?

Rikugun

Just my 2 cents... Is it possible you are looking for problems that don't exist? If your pump can be shown to be defective that's another story in which case disregard the following - although if it were me, I'd fix the pump.

This type of pump is simple and very reliable. They've been used on small engines/power equipment & lawn equipment for years. You'll be able to use all the fuel in the tank with the pump in place. The first time you run out of gas with gas still left in the tank, you may regret your decision. Replacing the OEM pump with an electric pump (IMO) adds a level of complexity not present with one that works on pulses that exist naturally when the engine is running. Although there has been a lot of speculation on the pump's viability, I'm not sure I've read where it was definitively shown to have gone bad. Not that it can't happen, it just seems to be very, very, rare. This is the reason the forum isn't littered with lengthy threads on pump repair and maintenance.

The pumps' viability is most often in question when an owner has a running issue they can't figure out. More often than not, it is eventually traced to one or more non-pump causes. I don't see removing the pump as an improvement but again, just my opinion. If it gives you peace of mind I can't argue those benefits but please know, you are removing one of the components shown to be very reliable.   :D
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Walt_M.

As for me, the electric pump is the way to go. Cold starts are so much easier that it reason enough in itself to go electric.
Whale oil beef hooked!

MikeScoot

Quote from: Rikugun on May 31, 2020, 08:36:50 AM


This type of pump is simple and very reliable. They've been used on small engines/power equipment & lawn equipment for years. ...

... The pumps' viability is most often in question when an owner has a running issue they can't figure out. ...

A lot of sense in what you have written. I have a similar pump on the way, but am interested to rule the pump out as a potential cause of running issue and so will try the engine with no pump in order to ascertain whether, or not, it is the cause of my problem (however unlikely that might be). I will have a new replacement pump on hand to use once I have isolated the problem - whatever its cause might be.

Quote from: Walt_M. on May 31, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
As for me, the electric pump is the way to go. Cold starts are so much easier that it reason enough in itself to go electric.

I've heard of this easier cold starting with an electric pump from both you, Walt, and from Rohan in NZ. Thanks for your report.

Cheers to all,
Mike
Both Luthers had their dreams,
But I've just got one Vision.
Theirs got them into strifes,
Mine just takes me fishin'.

kiwibum

My bike was running fine when I removed the pump, I just wanted to remove it if wasn't required, they didn't have one on the 400 so why was it on the 550. May be the inlet is slightly higher on the 550 due to the longer stroke and they thought the pump was needed. I agree the pump is very simple and reliable, I see them on mowers with low tanks. I only ran out of gas once on the 550 and there was barely any fuel left in the tank, so for me the pump wasn't required.

I can see how an electric pump might help fill the carbs for cold starts. This could also be achieved with a small manual pressure pump in the gas cap, couple of pumps every now and then to keep positive pressure in the tank pushing fuel out like vintage cars use.

A scoop in the top of a custom tank is an interesting idea, hadn't considered that. I have some of the parts to make the custom bike electronic fuel injection, so the aim is to gain back some space where the airbox was to put more fuel, still another couple of years away before I get to play with it.

Hi Rohan, I'm well, moved to Tauranga couple of years ago, I have a big enough place to have a workshop now so the bikes are on the property with me at least, just need to finish renovations so I have time to play.

Having a quick read through the ROV forums,  I see the same old problems coming up. Good to know there are still the old faces on here sharing their knowledge.:)

MikeScoot

Just been mucking around with some drawings of air filter on top of tank. There are a few problems with the idea. None that couldn't be solved but it would be a big effort to do so. Getting easy access to a fuel cap is one problem, and a means by which to drain incoming rain water without it hitting the filter element is another.

I think the reduction in required space (especially height) if you went to injection might allow the inner 'ceiling' of the tank to be lowered - thereby increasing capacity significantly - and it could all still be hidden away neatly on the underside of the tank.

Cheers,
Mike
Both Luthers had their dreams,
But I've just got one Vision.
Theirs got them into strifes,
Mine just takes me fishin'.

Rikugun

Walt, I'm curious about your report of easier cold starts with an electric pump. Do have any theories on why that is? For instance does it over power the inlet valve causing a rich condition? Prophet, do you run an electric pump or are you reporting what other's (Walt?) have found? Either way, same question to you - why easier cold starts?  You guys mentioned cold starts specifically - any noticeable difference when the engine is at operating temperature?

Mike, your "air filter on top" idea is one I haven't heard before. How serious are you about this? Still in a theory stage or have you worked on any prototypes or mock-ups?
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Walt_M.

It's simple really, turn the key, tick, tick, tick, float bowls are full. Hit the starter and you're running. The pump does not force fuel past the needle valves. Just make sure to use a pump from a carbureted bike, fuel injection use higher pressure.
Whale oil beef hooked!