Hard starting vs Easy starting

[Rick G]

The first Vision I had in MN and OR.  was a hard starter , the colder it got the worse it was It had 17000 miles on it, when I got it. Ran like the, proverbal striped a++  ape . reved to 11500 and picked up the front wheel going into 2 nd.
After I turned it upside down in pudding creek , I started with a differant bike , I used the same carbs , differant wiiring harness  amd TCI box ,but of course a differant engine,  except for the starter clutch and stator.

It has always  started better than the first one , even in very cold weather , and after sitting for a week or two. It has never seemed  as quick as the first one ( although ,to be fair , it has had a differant top ends installed and two different short blocks  and lives at 3500 feet elevation .

Also, my experence with MAC pipes, is that the engine will pull from a lower RPM  and pull stronger,  but top end rpm is reduced.  As for starting, pipes don't seem to make much differenc, either way.

[Lucky]

ok, here is a link to d/l a preliminary chart in Excel, look it over & let me know what else you think should be added (or removed)
--Lucky
http://www.xz550.com/EASY%20VS%20HARD.xls

[don_vanecek]

Lucky, interesting post, will sure follow it in the future.  The only comment that I have is I have always wondered why my Vision will be so much harder to start when it sits a few days and even worse a week or two. If I run it most every day (and follow correct starting procedure) it will usually start right up every time. Also, if I rode at 30-40 degree temps I would sure be worried the bike would start.  I think most of this is fuel system related and that perhaps it's too bad these fancy carbs didn't just come with good old choke plates. These engines should not have starting problems after sitting only a week or two and should have no problems until you get to temps perhaps below 30 or so.

[Night Vision]

ok, here is a link to d/l a preliminary chart in Excel, look it over & let me know what else you think should be added (or removed)

what is C9 - Alignment ?

[QBS]

Don, you are priming your carbs after their week long naps aren't you?

[Lucky]

NV, that's starter alignment.  checking to see if the brush plate is inexed to the body of the starter properly.  i'll ammend that .
--Lucky

[Rick G]

I don't know Don,  The mixture enrichener type of choke is better than a butterfly choke  as far as I'm concerned (providing , that it is in good condition.  This is based on my experence with my  butterfly choke equiped bikes I rode and worked on .  It seems like  the bikes that came with mixture enricheners  were better starters.  At least  we don't have to "tickle"  the carbs  to flood them , like the Continental and British bikes, up through the seventies.

[supervision]

 Rick, remember that if your accl pump is working it is the same effect as tickeling.   Some people might have never heard of tickeling, so I'll explain, their was a spring loaded pin that you held down which sank the float, making fuel over run the throat direct to the intake.  Butter fly chokes are far more effective IMO, because when you close them, as soon as the engine begains to turn, it pulls fuel direct over the top.
  I have never given this much thought about our enrichment circut, but I'm starting to think that they can be a cause for slow cold starts.
I wonder if EPA killed butter fly chokes?

[Coil Coyle]

Lucky, interesting post, will sure follow it in the future.  The only comment that I have is I have always wondered why my Vision will be so much harder to start when it sits a few days and even worse a week or two. If I run it most every day (and follow correct starting procedure) it will usually start right up every time. Also, if I rode at 30-40 degree temps I would sure be worried the bike would start.  I think most of this is fuel system related and that perhaps it's too bad these fancy carbs didn't just come with good old choke plates. These engines should not have starting problems after sitting only a week or two and should have no problems until you get to temps perhaps below 30 or so.

I think this one is the gasoline evaporating from the float bowl. Using Prime before trying to start should eliminate this one.

The Vacuum fuel pump may be the variable in all of the differences, put it in your chart, Lucky.

$0.02
;)
Coil

[don_vanecek]

Yes, I've learned to put the fuel selector on prime when the bike has sat for awhile. Still interesting (no maddening) why a Vision (mine anyway) will be hard starting from sitting only a week or two. I have sometimes opened the carb drains thinking there is no gas in the carbs (but of course I always get gas to run out).  Somewhat off subject, I once had a Yamaha 180 twin for a year or two (a 1967 two stroker), it was an incredable starter, push the botton and it was just on-no cranking, just instant on!

For whatever significance it is, I did notice harder starting in Colorado in June, I suppose to be expected as we were at 8500 feet and temps of 60 or so at first.

[arfa vmax]

hi i would do a compression check on both bikes first,then swap parts over 1 at a time say tci first as that would be the easiest,run both bikes for a while and note any difference then swap back and swap something else and do the same.By a process of elimination you should find the component if any that makes a difference.If no difference it must be the engine itself.Sounds like a lot of work i know but could give interesting results.When i build my v up the carbs are getting changed for sure.

[kwells]

yah...while that would be a true scientific method...it would definitely increase the experiment time.

[Tanno]

Lucky.... for tests

Electrical: Voltage tests - Everyone here knows already the low voltage issues.
             Amperage tests - Good to see especially if you see the voltage dropping. With this test, you can find out where your problem is. Bad connections can be hunted down by visual inspection, amp testing on each side, voltage drop measuring, also temp testing.

Starter - Bad brushes can cause slow starting. I'm having this issue more often than it should. I've installed three sets of new brushes since I got the bike (June 07). These brushes that come with the set availible from ebay are junk. They are a high carbon brush typically used for standard motors not starters. Starter brushes should have a higher copper content to withstand the hundreds of amps that they are subjected to. As the brushes get worse on contacting, amperage goes up and voltage will drop.

Engine.... run compression tests. I can't find my haynes manual at the moment, but I would suspect the pressure should be between 90psi and 160psi and shouldn't be more than about 5psi difference to maintain smooth running (since we are twins). Low pressure could mean several things; worn piston rings, worn valve seats, incorrectly adjusted valves, bad head gasket.
           If compression is low in one or more cylinders, you can isolate the problem to the valves or rings by squirting a little 30 weight motor oil into the cylinder through the spark plug hole and repeating the compression test. The oil temporarily seals the rings.
           If the compression readings are higher the second time around, it means the rings and/or cylinder is worn. No change in the compression readings would tell you the cylinder has a bad valve.
           A leak down test requires the removal of all the spark plugs. The crankshaft is then turned so that each piston is at top dead center (both valves closed) when each cylinder is tested. Most people start with cylinder number one and follow the engine's firing order.

A threaded coupling attached to a leakage gauge is screwed into a spark plug hole. Compressed air (80 to 90 psi) is then fed into the cylinder.

An engine is great condition should generally show only 5 to 10% leakage. An engine that's still in pretty good condition may show up to 20% leakage. But more than 30% leakage indicates trouble.

The neat thing about a leakage test (as opposed to a compression test) is that it's faster and easier to figure out where the pressure is going. If you hear air coming out of the tailpipe, it indicates a leaky exhaust valve. Air coming out of the throttle body or carburetor would point to a leaky intake valve. Air coming out of the oil fill hole would tell you the rings and/or cylinders are worn.

A leakage test can also be used in conjunction with a compression test to diagnose other kinds of problems. A cylinder that has poor compression but minimal leakage usually has a valvetrain problem such as a worn cam lobe, broken valve spring, collapsed lifter, bent push rod, etc. If all the cylinders have low compression but show minimal leakage, the most likely cause is incorrect valve timing.

Fuel system.... run pressure tests. More fuel is needed during cold starts. If the pressure is barely enough, then hard starts you will have. The choke's job is to richen the mixture. In most autos, it chokes the air. In most cycles, it adds more fuel. Again, if you have low fuel pressure and the cycles choke adds more fuel, your fuel pressure will drop even further which reduces required flow for starting.

Oil always has a factor when it's cold....regardless what weight.

Just my 5¢

[YellowJacket!]

Compression test would definitely confirm or discredit the "tighter engine" theory.  Good idear.

Also, how many of the hard starters have MAC"S??  Mine and Lucky's regualar riders do and they are hard starters. CV has stock exhaust.  Infact, if memory serves me correctly, YJ started mych more easily with stocks than MAC's and that was even with my jets reversed.

Add MAC's to the equation.

David

[QBS]

This thread is starting to get confused.  Lucky started it.  So, I am formally requesting that he define what he means by "hard starting".  Do his bikes crank with equal authority, but one takes longer to fire off?  Do they crank with unequal authority?, or what?  Clarification is requested, por favor.

[Lucky]

Well QBS, this will be a bit subjective i guess, but one bike simply starts easier.
BG's 'procedure' varies wildly, even if i set it to prime everytime, keep it on the JR, etc (in short, do all the things we reccomend) it can often take several minuets to get her to 'catch'.

Cafe Vision seems to always start within 5 cranks at the most.

so, my definition of hard starting: not knowing how many minuets from turning the key to ready to ride,
Easy starting: knowing exactly, in advance, how long between inserting the key & kicking up the side stand...

[supervision]

 Thanks for the info about the leakage test.  That makes sence that if you put air on top deadcenter you will hear where the leaks at.  I'm am curios what mine would sound like, bet my rings leak   If you destroy an old spark plug, and adapt it to an air hose, you'd be in business.  Take off the metal washer and put on a rubber one

[Rick G]

Dave ,In my case, my bike with stock mufflers was the slower starter. The  one I have now,  has MACs and starts quicker  , even after a long sleep.

Tanno , I need to see more than 90 PSI on a compression chec. 100 PSI absolute minimum 120 is better.
I have seldom seen two cylinders closer,than 10 psi apart , 2 or 4 cylinder engine. Other than that your information is worth printing out
MY XT200 yamaha, (single cyl. 4 stroke) had 155 psi, of compression , but would not start . Ignition was ok, carb cleaned. So I did a leak down  test and heard lots of air coming out of the  oil filler. Upon tear down , found the bottom of the bore badly rusted . Someday I''ll rebore the thing, so I can ride it!

[kwells]

Hey it is WINTER Rick.  Since you don't have any Vision projects.....well you know what follows

[Rick G]

Its winter here too , only the cold  nasty weather won't last as long as some folks get .
We got hit with a pretty good storm, lots of snow up by the Grand Canyon , Flagstaff  and on the Hualapie mountains (pronounced Wallapie)  The drive way washed out again  so  I had to go out and  fill the gorge created by the rain , with rocks and a coat of gravel
I do  have stuff to do on the Vision,replace the rear tyre and do remeadial work on the paint damaged by gas. I also need to replace the copper rings in the rear exhaust.  but the yard is muddy and its nasty out, I'll start in february , as its usually shirt sleeve weather by then . Besides, I have the Honda to ride  and I need practice sliding around in the mud.   :D :D :D :D To quote the XL forum "Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there in lurks the skid demon".  Poetic huh??