Starter Stuff

[Aelwulf]

Ok, I finally re-arranged the bikes in the garage so I could work on the '82 again.  I pulled the tank and airbox, then started into unfamiliar territory. :P I've taken pics as I go and have some varied questions but those will have to wait until I can upload pics from home again on a new computer.  I took out the carbs for the first time (for me, Bill in the Springs had 'em out before I was riding it regularly).  Those are sitting off to the side and *hopefully* will be my next step or two.  I'm now glad I brought my unopened can of Berryman's dip out here with me from Colorado since it's not available around here.

Then I took off the rubber boots under 'em that have the cracked exterior.  After that I removed the starter (yes after draining the oil :P ).  I didn't have some tools I needed to work on anything else so I used the liquid tape stuff on the boots.  I put three coats on about ten minutes apart as it says to.  It looks like it should work pretty well, I just need to clean it up a little.  Minor project done.

After getting tools I dug into the starter.  This thing was packed FULL of grungy gray grease in the planetary gear area.  Pain to clean out.  On the plus side there wasn't much oil except a bit in the bearings.  The old seal was a royal PITA to remove, and surprisingly the bearings seemed to have zero grease.  I think the oil that had seeped in was all that was lubricating 'em. :o But they were clean so I just wiped 'em down and packed in some of the Bel-Ray waterproof grease.  I put the new CR seal in, it seated a smidge below flush with the rim but looked to be in alright and not interfering with the bearings or anything.  Re-assembling that end I managed to bend a snap ring some.  Then I found out that that snapring isn't listed on Yamaha's fiche.  I don't know if it's the same size as the other or not but it wasn't even pictured.  I got a thing of spares from the auto store, no-go.  So I finessed the original back into shape as it wasn't severely out of whack and it worked.

Next I took off the brush end and was greeted with a small shower of black particles onto the garage floor.  I pulled out the commutator, from what I can tell it seems to look ok but I've never seen one before so not 100%.  I wiped it down and lightly used some sandpaper on the brush end to get rid of most of the black ring around it.  The copper wiring seems to be pretty bright still overall so I'm hoping it's all good.  Again, I'll have pics once I can upload 'em.  Several washers were pulled to the magnetic housing but I think I have them set to go back where they're supposed to.  The outside of the starter overall was black with grunge and rust, it's cleaned now so it's mostly back to silver, bit of tarnishing from the areas with the rust.

I opened the brush end, closed my eyes and blew out all the crud in it (no compressor, yet, so did it the old fashioned way).  Took 2-3 times, didn't realize how much blew out until I looked in the mirror later.  I looked like Blackbeard. :P But it cleaned up alright.

I have the following questions so far:

Where have you gotten the two square cut o-rings from?  I've checked with auto parts stores with no luck.  The Yamaha dealership can special order 'em but Yamaha's charging $20 each for 'em, calling 'em gaskets. :P

I'm guessing the 'brushes' are the two metal blocks on springs?  Are the ends supposed to be flat?  How much is supposed to be left sticking out?  Mine are pretty curved but seem to have an ok amount of metal sticking out.  I'll probably just get a rebuild kit off ebay if I can find one decent price.  Those look like they'll be a bit of a headache to change out, so fun there. ::)

On the electrical connector is that bottom ring just a regular washer?  If so I think mine's rusted through, a piece of it fell off while removing the starter from the bike.  If it's not just a washer any advice on what to look for?

On the brush end of the commutator, around the post that goes into the bushing, is it normal to have some pitting or whatever?

On the other end under the planetary gear poles should I be concerned if one of them has a ring worn into the backplate?

All in all aside from the brushes and o-rings I think I should be set to reassemble and test it.  Unfortunately it could be a week or so before I'm able to do so (have to have the computer paid for and make sure I have the cash for the kit).  Again sorry for no pics, it'd be easier if I could just show when I ask.  They're on the camera so will be up eventually.

[VisionMeister]

I bought a starter repair kit on E-bay a year ago for $29.95 + shipping.
They seem to show up pretty regularly and have everything you need.
Also parts are available from automotive electrical shops as the starter is very common.

[Aelwulf]

Cool, thanks.  I sas going through some old threads and caught hints of o-rings included but didn't know if it meant all three or just particular one(s).

[Aelwulf]

Ok, got my starter kit end of last week.  Tuesday or Wednesday I sat down to get the starter back together.  Comparing the old brushes to the new ones the old ones seemed to still have a fair bit of meat on 'em, just a bit of a curve worn in.  I'm keeping 'em to use as spares if needed.  I also left the bushings in as they looked alright far as I could tell.  I changed out all the o-rings, think the originals weren't terrible so keeping if needed, for reference if nothing else.  Worst to worst if someone has a starter with stuff just destroyed I could send 'em that stuff as an interim kit.  I kept the original bearing as it seemed to be in pretty good shape.  So the bearing, bushings and oil seal that came with the rebuild kit went unused (for now anyway).  I think I still have another oil seal new in the box as well.  If I find it I'll try to pipe up if anyone needs one.  Thankfully the new brushes also came with new nuts for the electrical connection.  The one I took off is swimming in the oil drain pan (enclosed type). :P

I put it back together without too much of a problem.  The brush end kept wanting to expand off the center section so that was a bit tricky to keep in place as I got the gear end together.  I almost forgot the little positional pin (which later decided to pop out so I had to line it up again).  My starter had notches already marked in each end which lined up well so I hadn't made new ones, they worked.  I'd guess it'd been redone before but the oil seal wasn't the spring type so if it had I'm guessing the person wasn't a member of the forum.  It might also explain everything being in decent condition inside.

I put on the planetary gears then worked the lid on over the gear end of the commutator (also almost forgot to put the washers back on for that).  It took a bit to get it both lined up and meshed in but it went on.  After that I cleaned up the bolts and put a bit of anti-seize on 'em.  The o-rings weren't too difficult, one of 'em did try to squeeze out but as mentioned by other folks I just did a turn or so on each bolt at a time until it was secured and pushed the ring back in as I went.  I hooked it up to some jumper cables and held the starter down with my knee to test it.  It whirred away no problem so hopefully it's all good.  It'll be a bit before I get to test it on the bike.

I filled a bucket with some warm water (which cooled a decent bit before I got to it ::) ) and some steel wool and cleaned up the area behind the starter some more.  It still has a couple of nooks & crannies that are a bit black but overall it's silver once again.  Then I put the starter back on the bike, bolted it on and attached the electrical lead.  It needed a LOT of cleaning but I think the biggest pain was getting that electrical lead on & off with that boot on it, followed by getting the end gear meshed with the engine putting it back on.

One more down.  I'm really hoping I can get motivated tomorrow to get the start3er clutch bolts done.  Knock on wood I have all the needed tools & hardware, just have to sit down and do it.  I'd like to have it done before I go on leave to the southeast on Wednesday, so that leaves me tomorrow & Monday.

I'll post the pics soon, hopefully tonight.

[Night Vision]

good job! sounds like you did your research before you started. When you go to do the starter clucth bolts, there's a very long post on how NOT to do it

[Aelwulf]

Ok, here's the pics finally.  There are a number of 'em but I rather wish I'd taken a few more putting it back together.  The assembly ones were about a week after the others:

Finally out


How does that much crud get behind the thing?


Another view of the cradle


Engine port


Too much grease!


Yikes


Bit fuzzy but it's the planetary o-ring


Cleaned out some.  Is that wear ring normal?


Old nose ring seal


Took a bit to get it out


New nose ring seal


There's the box for ya if looking to order (from NAPA anyway)


Gear end put back together.  Yes I remembered where that end gear's going and wiped the grease off :P


Inside the gear end of the body


Gear end pieces


Brush end of the commutator in the housing


Commutator, bit grungy


Commutator cleaned up some, I cleaned most of the black ring off the brush end after this pic


Is that pitting or whatever normal on the end of the commutator?


Brush end


Brushes aren't too bad?


Cleaned up before replacing 'em with the new ones


Glad the new ones came with this whole assembly, that washer looks toast (plus I lost the top nut :P )


Together again


Starter vogue


Cleaned up cradle...not perfect but still much better


And back on the bike

[don_vanecek]

Nice detailed pictures, good job.  I was a lucky SOB when I took mine off about three years or so ago and gave it to my talented older brother to do all the inside work, I just had to buy the parts. He even changed the bearing.  Keep up the good work!

[Rick G]

That crud is called road grime and its thrown up by the front wheel. In thev olden days fenders were much longer and caught a lot of the road grime, but style won over function and we have stylish short fenders that don't catch much of anything.

[Aelwulf]

Heh Yeah there just isn't much of a gap it seems between the back of the starter and that area for how much was stacked.  A lot of it was old oil or such as well helping make it all a greasy paste in some areas. :P

[macroars]

Somewhere on the Internet, there should be a VisionWiki where we could store this kind of knowledge. A wikipedia for the Vision!

[YellowJacket!]

www.xz550.com has a lot of good stuff.  Its Lucky's website.  I also think there is a wiki entry for the Vision but theres not been much added to it.

David

[inanecathode]

I like those pictures, how did you get such good macro shots?

[macroars]

www.xz550.com has a lot of good stuff. 

I know, but the case is that this forum shows that there is a huge collective knowledge about Vs. The purpose of a Wiki is to store this knowledge in a way that is systemized to retrieve knowledge. It is a collective notebook.

[Aelwulf]

www.xz550.com has a lot of good stuff.  Its Lucky's website.  I also think there is a wiki entry for the Vision but theres not been much added to it.

David

Aye, I pop onto that every once in a while *zx550.com that is).  I've seen the Wiki, it's general.  I think this site serves as a better 'wiki' for detailed stuff like various jobs. :) Plus I have the CD. ;)

I like those pictures, how did you get such good macro shots?

6MP Casio EX-S600 (Exilim card camera), think it held up to 2GB memory card before I just flashed the firmware, now I believe it should work up to 8GB.  Only time I've ever gone over 1GB was in Italy.  For the size of the camera & the fact it's only got 3x optical zoom (the only drawback IMO, 5x would've been nice) it takes really good pics.  I keep it on the highest quality and size settings witht he memory card so it produces large clear pictures (if I don't fuzz 'em).  I think they've shuffled their Exilim line recently but if they didn't mess with the overall workigns they should still be a good line.  Got the ex in Colorado one for her birthday before I left/we broke up (think the Z70 IIRC) and she loves it.

[YellowJacket!]

I have thought of either linking threads to my Windows Live Space blog or creating a really nice PDF file with the relavent posts and replies to many questions and subjects for Lucky to add to his DVD. 

Also a single, moderator controlled stickie with important links would be good but would probably require a lot of searching and editing..as we sometimes get a little OT...but thats just the great nature of this family that I'm proud to be a part of.  ;D

David

[Aelwulf]

You could make some doing copy & paste to cut out the extra crud but that'd take a good bit of boredom/spare time. ;)

[YellowJacket!]

Thought about doing it today.  I got "caled off" of a 12 hour shift which ended up giving me 7 days off in a row....lol, but I have been getting caught up on some much needed housekeeping.  Can't do anything outside today as the remnants of Fay are directly over us and its a freakin monsoon outside.  Was raining so hard before it looked like it was snowing out.  :o

David

[h2olawyer]

At least you're getting some time off (making it more difficult to pay for all your cool, conditioned air  ::) ).  Another benefit is that Fay's remnants are putting at least a bit of a dent in the drought y'all have been going through the last couple years.

Go put on the SCUBA tanks & get out for some rain ride practice!   :D

H₂O