New Conversations with Electrex (3/10/04)

[ofstone]

Ok You are thrue about that a R/R is easyer to replace than a stator. But a fialing R/R (chorting) can cause the stator to fail almost instantly (10 Seconds?) are and if the short current is high enoug also melting your cable harness or at least the wires from stator to R/R

Using thicker wire with the same resistance does not work, because it is the resistance of the wire that is heating up the wire and together with the type of insulation, number of windings and surrounding temperature that is limiting the maximum amount of current (before the wire smokes up).
It is clear that the maximum current is a bit over the edge, but not much because some bikes ride 20000 KM without the need of changing the stator. If it was really to small it would smoke up sooner. probably the first highway ride.
If it smokes up sooner, than that is because of other factors, like bad connexions R/R bad or not the same as it was new. this because most stories i have read, it is clear that the first stator lives much longer than the second, the third, the fourth ..............

I did not find a table about resistances of the different AWG sizes but if the resistance would change from 0,32 ohm to 0,22 ohm, than the maximum current used when regulator is regulating:

14,5v/0,32 = 45 Amp peak
14,5v/0,22 = 66 amp peak

Ok both actual values will be lower because internal resistances and voltgae drop of the R/R, but a short circuit wil generate these amps and if you calculate the watts heating up the inside of the stator!

I also would like the folks of electrex and compagnies like that to paticipate in the forums, but that would be something for them like throwing in their own windows i suppose. They are only selling stators and R/R to earn their money in the first place (like every healty compagny does). Helping us comes at second place. And if they tell us how, we would make it ourselves without profit, because we would like to help our other fellow vision drivers. But i also would appreciate a little help from the pro,s.

You are also right i think about yamaha did not design this principle for the charging system good because of lack of money, but i think yamaha is responsible for this problem and also they would notice a lot stators are failing after a couple of KM's. Wy did they not improve the design or came with a solution at that time. I think that is because off it is a problem with more factors and it would cost to much to recall all visions and completely update charging system. Repairing the stumble would give them more buyers i think because the stumble is noticed during a test ride and a possible failing stator not.

[Glyn Pickering]

Not being in any way electrically inclined, even to a dummy like me it is apparent that for whatever reason the stator/ R/R design in the XZ was bad and seems to be a major issue in ownership. Wouldn't it be better to put less effort from all concerned into trying to fix the current set up and simply look for a alternative from another jap bike without these problems?

There probably lots of issues with trying to do this but wouldn't the design of a " mechanical conversion kit" to make a robust system from another jap model work on the XZ the way to go? I'm prob speaking through my orrifice here but
I've had loads of jap bikes and never suffered any electrical gremlins?

Regards

Glyn

[ArrrGeee]

Nothing like some lively discussion eh ? ;)

ok, we do know that if the reg\rec shorts it's going to fry the stator, this is already true and has already happened on some bikes.

20 000 kilometers = 12 427.42 miles
yes, many bikes go 12k without needing a stator, in the grand scheme of things, 12k is not a lot of miles.
part of the problem here is that the stator does not fail in 5 minutes or a week but 6 or 8,000 miles or 2 years from now.
I have 7 years on the one in my bike.

your resistance numbers are ok for a larger difference, when I talked about 17awg and 100 ft the difference is less than .03
not .1  ... that is really the point, the resistance is only lowered slightly, causing it to run cooler under load.
Would this make the regulator short out ?
I doubt it.  also, if the stator generates (in theory) 18-20 amps from each of the coils, then the rectifier would only convert what is produced by the stator and the regulator
only bleeds off what is not needed in the form of heat.

think about this for a minute. ok, your cruising along 60-70mph down the highway on a nice summer day, temps are in the mid 70's.  The engine is turning about 6000rpm. that means that every 1000 times per second, the 3 stator coils are generating a full ac sine wave up to and over the maximum capacity of the wire. sure it gets hot, eventually, not today or tomorrow the wire weakens because of the heating
the insulation eventually breaks down and the wire shorts to whatever is convenient.  now if you could successfully bleed that extra heat off somewhere, the wire and insulation would hold up longer. but. The stator is located in the engine, already preheated to 200 degrees by virtue of it's location.
The baseline is still 200 degrees no matter what you do with it, thermostat change, oil cooler etc.

The only way you are going to get the stator cooler is to get it out of the engine, what we're looking for is a way to improve the situation so that instead of lasting 12k miles, it lasts 24k or 48k.  if you could improve it so it holds up for 50k or 10 years then I think that would be acceptable. how many of us will be owning this bike in 10 years ?

Bike makers don't build bikes for people to own for 10 or 20 years, if they did, they'd go out of business.
as a current vision owner, you want to know that if you fix something, you hopefully won't ever have to mess with it again for the amount of time you own your bike.

Yamaha is not in the business of fixing 20 year old bikes so there won't be anything coming from them. They probably have no idea we exist and could probably care even less.
when you're making thousands of products a year, what is a couple hundred people.  

what we need is a "good enough" solution so that once you do the fix, you don't have to worry about it for another 10 years or 50k miles.

ymmv

-Ron

[GA_Wolf]

To bad there is not some way we can put the stator external to the engine....for a way overly simplified example...remember as kids the little generator on our bicycles that rolled along the edge of the tire to power that lame little light.   ;)

But it seems to me, that the obvious solution would be to find wire that with the existing diameter and resistance, but with improved insulation and heat handling capabilities.  Also to protect the stator from damage from a failed regulator, couldn't we but a fusable link or fuse in each stator line prior to the R/R to prevent a failure in either the stator or the R/R from cascading to the other component?

[Humber]

I know a man who has got external stator on hios V, but he doesn't want to send me pictures... This is possible in fact..

[ArrrGeee]

I'm sure there are ways you could put the stator external but I have no interest in that. if you really wanted to you could do it for probably under 200 bucks. get a junkyard alternator,
drill a hole in the left side cover, run a pulley shaft out, make a bracket and hang an alternator onto it.  there are people that retrofit goldwings with this exact mod.

I still think we can solve this with some of the changes we've been talking about.  the idea of retrofitting with another stator, flywheel, reg\rec is also possible and may not be that bad.  certain year viragos have the stator problem while others do not have them as much.  we need more data.

The fusible link(s) in the stator harness, that may be a good
idea for protecting the components from each other.
if one goes, it doesn't take the other one with it.
I kind of like that one.  any comments ?

-Ron

[Silver_Bullet]

Lord knows my knowledge of electronics is limited, but if the crux of the problem is heat, could the wires exiting the sidecover be run through a heatsink of sorts, before they get to the R/R, without doing anything adverse, electrical-wise?

Mark

[joevacc]

I also think that a fusible link is something that could be very effective. Also the newer technology  maxi fuse may be something to look into.  We have to do the math to figure the maximum current draw the R/R can take.  I think (if memory serves...) The capacity of fusible links is usually 30 amps or more.  Will that exceed what the R/R can take?  I believe you can get 20 AMP maxi fuse.

Well, I haven't answered any questions but will try to find out more.

Joe Vacc

[Waapman]

Was at the WALMART last week and they sell a heavy duty inline fuse set-up rated to 30amps, I just about bought it to rig up into my stator wires but decided Id do some research first, its funny it was brought up!  

[ArrrGeee]

information from Ricks Stators:

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Ron Ghetti <computerhelp@ghetti.net>
Date:  Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:34:46 -0500


>>Hi,
>> I need to replace my stator,
>> and I was curious about the construction of the unit.
>> for example, what size and temperature rating wire
>>do you folks use to wrap them with,
>>Also, should I replace my reg-rec at the same time.
>>thanks
>>-Ron Ghetti
>>
>>

All of our epoxy is rated at 155 deg c and our magnet wire at 200 deg c. If you can test R/R do it. If you want us to check it we will do it no charge if you purchase an item and if you don't purchase anything the cost is $10.00.

--
Ken Silva
General Manager
Rick's Motorsport

----

note, I sent a similar message to Electrex without a reply as of yet.

-Ron

[Walt_M.]

Ok, the Rick's stator insulation is good to 311 deg. F and the wire is good to 396 deg F. This should be good enough for our use. Now if we can get a suitable R/R. I would like to see the Honda CX500 unit that somebody says is 'meatier' than ours.

[Lucky]

I know i've read on here that there have been failures with RICKS Stators too...

230 degrees from drained oil may not be the same as oil tempuratures taken from the oil as it's being ridden hot on a hot day, so suspect those readings to be on the low side....  When Rick G gets tepurature data, it'll be from a running engine.

Lastly, I think it's time to remind everyone that all the discussion of failed stators has made it seem that this flaw in the design will be the doom of our bikes.  Remember that there are several people here who have gotten years & years from their stators, with out replacement.  

They are always the ones who reccomend to the newbies that the clean ALL the electrical connectors on the bike, Keep the battery properly tendered when not used for extended periods, keep them filled to the proper level, etc, etc, etc...

Remember that a electrical system with high resistance, and/or a neglected battery will tax the charging system further, and a heavy duty charging system will only mask problems.

Make electrical care part of your maintenace ritual

[ArrrGeee]

well actually I'm looking into the Honda v45 setup.
I'm told that they hold up fairly well even after cooking the connectors A la the vision

http://v65.freeshell.org/sabmag/reg_conn.html

The stator is a bit wider and puts out more amperage.
the regulator is a bit bigger also.
I don't know if there is enough clearance to run this setup
but I'm shopping these items out on ebay.
The electrex chart has it listed as 2mm thinner but I've seen dimensions elsewhere that state it is 4mm wider than the vision.  I'm told it puts out 32 amps.  I can't imagine that the honda v45 being a water cooled v4 runs any cooler than the vision   It should be a fun experiment, sort of like a bolt-on upgrade, assuming I'm able to get the parts cheap enough.

-Ron

[ArrrGeee]

Lucky is right on this, I think the problem tends to be more exaggerated because we have more Visions per capita on this forum than you'll find anywhere else.
Add to that the fact that these bikes are 20 years old, there is no doubt that problems are going to show up.

its true, I've got almost 16 years on 2 visions without ever having a stator problem, it may be that I'm just due or more likely this one's been abused at some point enough for it to quit.  while it will end up costing me a few bucks to fix, I do expect problems with my bike being as old as it is...

All of this talk is just like bench racing anyways, the beauty being that we've got a lot of talent and experience between all the guys that hang out here with different ideas to further the development of these cool bikes. I like the idea of focusing on the issue and digging for possible solutions.

so, I was talking to a guy with a brandy new Honda 950 and it seems he had fried the stator on his bike by replacing his headlights with those super bright H7's (don't quote me)
a radar detector and some extra lights.
anyway, after getting some more info and doing some research, it seems that his bike runs what I believe to be the same stator that the vision does. his add ons cost him pushing his bike a couple times and 400 bucks at the dealer.
Whats the moral of the story ?  don't overload your charging system would be a good start....

-Ron

[ofstone]

I think that there is something we are overlooking.
Why does the first stator lives much longer than the all the next ones???
There really is another factor changing when the bik gets oldere we are completely forgetting and we have to find out what it is ore simply dont know it is causing it. I am talking about the thing that is causing the R/R to overheat.
The problem should be there someware in the electrical system of the bike......

As things age i can only think about a couple problems:
Flywheel magnets losing power( this would cause voltage to drop i think, so possible bad idea).
Bad connections, and if i loook to my connections some are almost turned into dust, so i am rebuilding the bad connectors and cleaning the other ones to.

As i was looking for the central ground point, i only found one grounding wire to chassis wich connects the complete system to chassis. The connexion was a solder eye under the left ignition coil mounting bold (from front cylinder), and it was rused a little bit.
I wonder what could happen if this connexion starts oxidising.
I think it would higher the voltage, and also the current maybee overloading the stator?

It should be somethoing like this because as i read some other bikes also use this charging system without frying the coils.
Maybee yamaha did not spared their money one the charging system, but on the complete cable harness.

[wolfman]

I "think" based solely on what I see on my bike, the wiring diagram, and my knowledge of automotive electrical systems, that the rectifier/regulator shuts the voltage to ground at the point where the rectifier/regulator itself attaches to the bikes frame.  Of this I do know.  When a short circuit occurs (essentially what the regulator does in a controlled fashion) the most heat is generated closest to the short itself.  This would be why the R/R gets hot.  It could also account for why that notorious connector heats up and melts.(The incoming unneeded current is meeting too much resistance at the R/R end of the connector)  I am personally thinking that along with ensuring that the connector is making good contact, we should also be sure that the R/R is making the best ground possible to the bikes frame. Just my .02

[Lucky]

Ok, 2 corrections:
1) the grounding points on the bike are the black wire under the left side coil mounting bolt, and the negative battery cable, and yes they both need to be clean.  I've also added a 3rd ground between the starter (not stator :) ) mounting bolt and frame.

2) the R/R ground (shunt to ground) is through the thick black wire that runs into the bikes wire harness (and to the coil mounting bolt) That is why BOTH connectors on the R/R need to be eliminated, you'll often find that connector melted as well.  There is no continuty between the R/R case and the R/R ground. I had thought there was once, and used to reccomend adding an additional ground here too.

[admin]

ok just for fun I did a poll on the sportriders of new england mailing list, I hang out there occasionally.

I got back about 21 or so reply's many of them stating that they have had some problems depending on the bike and how old it is. Many of them ride new bikes and so are less likely to have an issue.  and here is a couple of them.

<<
I had to replace it on my 1982 Suzuki GS750EZ.


Steve T.
>>

 

<<
The only charging problem VFR's had was the regulator/rectifier.
NOT the stator.  My '86 VFr had this prob around 25K miles,
but my '95 went 33k with no elec problems. Early '80s vintage bikes
did have their share of problems but not anything
really since the mid 90's that I've ever heard of.
Happy Friday
Jon
>>

<<
Every VFR has had rectifier problems. The current model is plagued with
them. Motorcyclists testing VFR was taken away by Honda and shipped back to
Japan to be dissassembled. Mptorcyclist never got the bike back , or heard
anything else about it. The bike's electrical system failed on Boehm several
times in his few months riding it.


Ralph
'98 YZF600R
'95GPZ1100
'99 Atomic 9.18's

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>>


of course, this information doesn't prove anything, but can be helpful in searching for possible replacement parts.
of all the things we've looked at, one of the more likely things that contribute to early failure is the R\R. it just may be making the stator work a bit harder than it should, generating the extra heat.


-Ron

[supervision]

   Ron please write back about your two bikes with mileage on the bike, speeds your run your motor (like how much of the time do you spend at 7,000 rpm and above)  Would you consider yourself a slow style rider or do you ride more sport.                                                                                    

[supervision]

I have just returned a stator to Electrex,   I had them send me a new one the other day and thought there was a huge difference in the  look of the quality....( I had one of there sators already in my bike ,and it had just failed at about 10,000 miles)    The new stators they are don't look anthing like the picture on there website,the last one looked fantastic and I had high hopes of It lasting awhile..   the most recent one was barely coated and where the 3 leads leave the poles the wires where free to viberate ..... I told the guy on the phone I just had no confidence in placing that in my bike.   I asked why the obvious change in epoxy and he said they had problems with the others  failing....