I think I'm gonna cry

[Back_in_the_Saddle]

Well, today, the mechanic got the bike running, poorly. He says he hears a knocking from the engine. He has seen the flywheel and its missing a tooth, but the knocking is not coming from it. I've got parts on the way, and even a flywheel. What to do.

[kiawrench]

 you sound like you need help,
  i am thinking you are going to need someone that knows vision motorcycles, (not that you didnt pick a good shop,just 99% of the open shops never even heard of the bike )
 when you get a chance , log in on the member map page , see who is your nearest fellow rider,,, with luck , it will be one of us that has been there- done that .
  
    The wrench report you have from your mechanic just sounds funny from the start   flywheel missing a tooth? i dont know about anyone else's , but my flywheel doesnt have teeth on it .The starter clutch set does,, but that is a cheap fix compared to what it could be . my bet is, the guy is lost for diagnosis and just tried to tweak the bucks from you , , i may be wrong ,, but i just went and looked at spare flywheel,, no teeth at all on mine .

[redxz550inoz]

oh dear!!
I got more or less the same response from the mechanic I put mine into originally! - his verdict was 'hope you've got lots of money coz it's gonna cost you heaps coz so much is wrong with it but get it out of here coz I don't wanna do it'
Turns out all she needed was a full service, carb clean and exhaust repair/ replace.
Like kiawrench said, don't be afraid to ask any of the guys here for help. It costs a whole lot less and they KNOW what they're talking about - no doubts there - coz they deal with their pride n joy every day

Good luck

Red

[Lucky]

Ah young Back-in-the-Saddle Grasshopper, you have much to learn, but not to worry, the Vision Zen will soon enlighten your path...

first bit of wisdom: He who prepair own shushi, know ingredients best.
Translation: you open the case & find what's wron, instaed of letting that mechanic guess.

Second bit of Wisdom: One cannot get to great city without local man to guide.
Translation: your starter clutch probably needs work, and you may also need to tighten the balancer shaft nuts, as well as check the charging system output.

Your map is here: http://www.xz550.com/starterclutch.html
several symptoms point in the direction of the item i've mentioned.

First, a starter clutch with the bolts loose (a common problem) will make a knocking sound that sounds like the crankshaft is going to come out the bottom of the bike, the noise goes away above 2500 rpm or so.

Second, loose balance shaft driv & driven gear nuts (even a little) will make a knocking almost as bad, but it doesn't go away at any rpm.

Third, a weak battery/ charging system and/or worn starter clutch rollers will cause the starter clutch to slip as the bike enters a compression stroke while cranking. the resulting loud "KNOCK!" can sound similar to a vehicle with a geared flywheel missing a tooth (Or several)

Third bit of wisdom: he who has friends soon has the wind in his face.
Translation:  We've heard it (almost) all, these problems i've mentioned we've faced & concured, you can too. none of it is very hard to fix, and none of it involves any more than basic hand tools & common sense. and we are allways here to answer your Q's, just ask.

-- "Zen Master" Lucky

[Rick G]

What the mechanic was really saying was , I never seen one of these things before and I've heard there a pain in the butt, so I'll bid it real high so this guy will go away. Trust me I'm a wrench. The virago has teeth on the flywheel , but not the Vision, he hasen't look at anything!
Do your self a favor,  forget this guy and start learning how to fix it your self.  You will need to buy a few tools  (go to harbor frieght) and ask a lot of questions , but then, thats why we'er here.

[Back_in_the_Saddle]

 :'( ::) ;D Alright, now that I've been through the early stages of Vision ownership, I see that my status in the left side of my posts has changed to full member. So is that all it takes, a good cry?  ;D  Now that I've gained my composure, and read your supportive words, i'm feeling better. I did some of the minor stuff, but when it got "difficult", I ran to the pros(cough cough). Oddly enough, I was looking at another bike and the guy who is selling it owns a place called Cycle Dr. in LA. He says he learned from some old Yamaha salts, one who to this day runs a Vision. I'm not taking it to him though(unless I totally lose it). I'm gonna pick up the bike friday and talk to the   "mechanic"   and try to get a feel for what he saw. Then its crank case off and dive in. You guys really have made a huge difference in regard to this bike and my attitude. To go on even longer, this is not simply about getting a bike running for me. Almost 20 years ago a 1972 Impala crossed my path while on an RZ 350. I spent 2 months in the hospital, and 2 more months in a hospital bed at home. I was 18. I faired pretty well with a great doctor and support from the family. Both legs were pretty bad and I still do not have full range of motion with my right leg. Helmet saved me. Anyway, I've ridden since then on and off but haven't owned a bike. 2 months ago, I rode a Harley and my needs came back, Strong. So, one morning, I decided, it's time. But I was interested in a bit, I repeat, a bit of a project. So, $150 bucks later, I'm the proud owner of a non working, good looking Vision. So hear I am, aching to ride, and a bike that won't start. I picked a project for a reason, I just have to follow through. So let me just say, as sincerely as possible, thanks for your help, your enthusiasm, and your old parts.

[scootertramp]

 NOT everbody can be a vision rider simply because you have to WANT TO RIDE more than you want to walk..
I knew NOTHINK aboot dis' sickle. I hov a vision.. Sweet ride. Vroomish if you will.
Mine knocked and had chargin' difficulties and rattled and did'nt go VROOm just went bapa-bap then clickety whirr,,clickkI said dang a lot.. and looked at it and took mine to the YAMAHA DEALER and they lafed at me and asked me what did I want done and I said fixed and they said ahahahaha hey louie look at this hea uh bike and tell him we don't work on over ten year olde bikes..
then they said no charge iff I just take it out..
another guy tole me fourty bucks an hour..
I had NO MONEY and NO EXPERIENCE, the ONLY thang I had was the THREE ELEMENT RULE: it's GOT to have FUEL and it HAS to breath and have AIR and then it MUST HAVE a goode SNAPPY SPARK FIRE.. THREE ELEMENTS AIR,FUEL,SPARK..
all the rest is  OILS shocks/suspension and lights/mirrors,cables,paint,rubber,good rubber,glass/plastic a few hundred feet of wire seemslike, and iffen you wish to be more than you were and feel some REAL GLORY then theys some connectors you gonne slice and dice  right offen that sucker like theys ain't no tomorrow,you gonne learn the fine aht of 'SODDERING if you got what it takes  and carb repair and more extra carb repair if you clumsy or rashahahaha, then you gonne larn to WRENCH and sand and clean and talk to THE KAMI. oh yeah you gonne finde all about the KAMI.
then iffen the KAMI like you, you gonne feel the wind at ninety.. if you got what it takes.. to be a VISION RIDER.
MONEY ain't gonne get it.. Money nice, money goode,but KAMI say  KAMI  want blood,sweat and tears. I gave MINE all that and rage and doubt and frustration and KAMI gave me WINDE...
and midnight rides with a beautiful  dark haired woman holding tight to me leaning and close and bumping and laughing and enjoying her midnight ride..
and I am MORE than I was.
thanks to these cats and dogs in this Vision kennel..
Arf.. I mean VROOM! 8)

[admin]

Dang Scooter, now cut that out, we don't wanna scare that newbie vision owner away do we ?
now saddle don't you pay him no nevermind...  LOL
I'm laughing my a$$ off !!!

but seriously,
It's too bad we have to hear about these bad mechanic's that aren't interested in helping new vision owners.  once in a while I'd like to hear about someone getting fixed up by a tech who knew what he was doing.

back_in_the saddle,  I agree with what everyone has already said here. you likely have a bad starter clutch\loose flywheel.
these are not that big a deal to take care of and if done right will probably never give you a problem again. The missing teeth thing is actually an impossiblity because as mentioned the flywheel has no teeth and the starter engagement gear is in constant mesh with the starter, not like an automobile starter which has an engagement gear.
one thing I will suggest is that if you are not up to working on it yourself, print out a few of the messages here, including Lucky's flywheel fix page and bring it to a guy who is technically competent and will not fleece you for the money, I know they are out there, you may have to ask around to find one.
Maybe we should start a trusted mechanic list here on the board, they have a similar thing on a few other websites.
The reason I bring this up is because not everyone is interested or has the time or the capability to do some of the maintenance work neccessary on a 20 year old motorcycle.

I believe one of the reasons we hear these stories is because these bikes haven't been back to the dealer in a while and they don't know how they are set up.  I had a guy who owned a yamaha dealer say something to me back a few years ago that simply proved that he was completely ignorant about the bike. I ignored him and never brought it there to have any work done for that very reason.

this is just an analogy, please don't flame me for this....
It's like trying to have a chevy guy work on your 9 series bmw,
or your new porche. he may have a rough idea but without a manual and maybe some advise from someone who knows, he's probably going to throw a bunch of parts at it till he hits on the right one.

There are many tools and tidbits of information here and on Lucky's website to help you get your bike up and running like a champ, good luck and godspeed. ;)

-Ron

[h2olawyer]

Hey Saddle -

Just want to reinforce what everybody else is saying here.  I tend to agree with the starter clutch & balancer shaft diagnosis too.  The problems most likely aren't that bad and it really pays to talk to folks familiar with Visions.  You'll get good info here and we all want to see as many of these bikes preserved & running as possible.

Visions will try your patience!  After getting all the recommended fixes done and keeping up with the routine maintenance, the only recurring problem you're likely to have is the stator & R/R flaming out.  Most of the fixes are reasonably priced and by doing them yourself, as Scootertramp shows, it is a great education and source of satisfaction & pride.

Remember the wise words of Chief Dan George in Outlaw Josey Wales - "Endeavor to persevere".

H2o

[Back_in_the_Saddle]

Alright, so, I dug in and took care of what was loose bolts in the starter clutch. It was a lot easier than I thought it would be, thanks to Lucky's starter clutch repair for dummies. I put her back together and.....nothing. To begin at the beginning...when I first got it, forcing fuel down the carbs got it running, reving high for a few seconds and shutting off, so I hit the carbs. From incorrect jumping, I fried the starter, I picked up another. Fluids and hoses checked, replaced, filled. New battery. wouldn't start. Took it to the shop, he says he did the timing, and got it to run, heard the knocking, suggested crankshaft. Dipped carbs.I take Lucky's advice and check the starter clutch, bolts loose, do repair. Check stator, looks good. Test and Move R/R to foot peg. Still won't start. Seems weak. When I turn it over it cranks, somewhat slowly. Makes a noise like there's no oil(there is). also backs off. I checked the starter for oil and there is none. After I put the starter clutch back together, I turned it over and it back fired once which I understand to be normal. During the several times I tried to start it, it seemed like it was about to start the last time, heard it run for a few seconds, then, it starts with the slow cranking. I'm charging the battery tonite but tried to start jumped from a non running car. I'm going to ask the mechanic how he got it running and for how long. If I can I'll load the sound of it cranking over in a following reply. Also, I can hear what seems like a muffled small backfire. not sure if its the engine or pipes, feeling is its the engine area. Looking for any suggestions.

[Rick G]

Try squarting a bit of gas into the vacuum ports on the carb mounts, some times the need a little squart to wake up.

[Back_in_the_Saddle]

Can you identify their location for me. thanks

[Rick G]

The vacuum hose for the petcock is on one and the other has a bullit shaped rubber cap on it , its on the rear rubber mount .

[ArrrGeee]

a couple of thoughts...
fouled plugs, low battery, flooding condition possibly.
it sounds like you've hit all the bases.
pull the plugs and clean them, double check your electrical connections.

one thing I've noticed on mine is the wires to the ignition pickup are chafed through the insulation just outside the stator cover, I can see it would be easy for that to be a problem when doing a flywheel job, put a meter to them at the tci unit and check the readings.

one thing I will say, ;) why do mechanics always say they set the timing ? I've never set the timing on the vision and frankly the only way to change it is to pull the stator cover, grind some slots on the pickup bracket etc. etc.
the ignition timing is non-adjustable on the vision, otherwise known as maintenance free. lol

what would be cool is for someone to hack the tci so we could play around with different timing curves etc like modern cars\bikes.  The new R6 just got a 32 bit microprocessor, now if they would only dress it up as a midsize sport tourer with shaft drive...  but I digress.

take your time, look everything over carefully, your almost there.

-Ron

[Rick G]

One more thing, while you have the plug caps off ,twist the caps cccw and cut the last 1/4 inch of plug wire off, them reinstall the plug cap. the wires get a little crappy on the ends.

[Back_in_the_Saddle]

It sounds like something is slipping when I try to start it. If I've tightened the starter clutch, what else could be slipping? And also the "backing off". Any ideas?

[ArrrGeee]

well.... you asked.
how about the starter clutch itself ?
what kind of shape are the sprags in ?
was there any cracks ?
did all the pieces go back together ok?

-Ron

[Back_in_the_Saddle]

Crack possible, problem? LOL