baked stator

[Tanno]

The R/R regulator portion only makes sure the voltage stays constant, not the power.  It shunts as much current to ground as needed to load the stator and drop the system voltage down to 14.5 V.  Higher voltage at the stator means higher current at the stator and the R/R, hence more heat (the enemy).

The stator tries to keep the voltage at roughly 50-60v. When you add a load, the voltage drops and amperage climbs. Try it with anything else electric -- AC or DC.
There is relatively no amps on an unloaded stator (unplugged). Hence, the electro.. test for voltage at the stator does absolutely no harm to the stator.

[ironb12s]

The stator tries to keep the voltage at roughly 50-60v. When you add a load, the voltage drops and amperage climbs. Try it with anything else electric -- AC or DC.
There is relatively no amps on an unloaded stator (unplugged). Hence, the electro.. test for voltage at the stator does absolutely no harm to the stator.

Au contraire, Tanno, the stator does not keep, or even try to keep, the voltage constant.  If we had the rotor coil like automotive and modern motorcycle alternators do, then we might have some control at the stator.  What we have with the static rotor magnets is voltage that increases as RPMs rise.  The R/R does all of the work to turn the Alternating sine wave of AC into the steady no-wave of DC, and then takes whatever the stator sends it, shunting anything above 14.5 volts.  At low RPM, the R/R augments stator power with 12-13V from the battery to maintain at least 12V, because the stator isn't providing the 12V in the first place.  Why do you think the Electrosport diag calls for the 60V test at 5000RPM?  Personally, I'd prefer a reference a little lower, say 2000-3000.

Man, I wish I had my Vision to play with... :(

[Tanno]

The stator tries to keep the voltage at roughly 50-60v. When you add a load, the voltage drops and amperage climbs. Try it with anything else electric -- AC or DC.
There is relatively no amps on an unloaded stator (unplugged). Hence, the electro.. test for voltage at the stator does absolutely no harm to the stator.

Au contraire, Tanno, the stator does not keep, or even try to keep, the voltage constant.  If we had the rotor coil like automotive and modern motorcycle alternators do, then we might have some control at the stator.  What we have with the static rotor magnets is voltage that increases as RPMs rise.  The R/R does all of the work to turn the Alternating sine wave of AC into the steady no-wave of DC, and then takes whatever the stator sends it, shunting anything above 14.5 volts.  At low RPM, the R/R augments stator power with 12-13V from the battery to maintain at least 12V, because the stator isn't providing the 12V in the first place. Why do you think the Electrosport diag calls for the 60V test at 5000RPM?  Personally, I'd prefer a reference a little lower, say 2000-3000.

Man, I wish I had my Vision to play with... :(

K... maybe I stated that incorrectly. The stator doesn't control anything. BUT, if you maintain let say, 2000 rpm with minimal lighting. Your amperage reading from the stator should be only about 8-10A and voltage at about 13.5. Now, hook up that jumper cable from your battery to a low automotive battery and your amperage should climb quite a bit higher and your voltage is still the same....maybe lower. Now, if you were to watch the meters the instant you hooked up the cable, you'd see the voltage drop just as the amperage climbed.

Anyway, I think we're on the same page, just different languages.

[ironb12s]

Okay, now you and I ARE on the same page.  ;)

And in that respect, when the R/R can no longer shunt the excess power (because it has fried) the power backs up in the stator coils to roast the windings.  It's a chicken/egg sorta.  It's also why I believe that a R/R that can handle a much higher load will keep the stator happy longer.  It's too bad that the XS850 went to the variable rotor winding inputs, or we'd have a workable fix...  I have NOT given up the search, will advise as visions reveal themselves...   ;D  I'm gonna keep on it until the solution is found...

[Tanno]

Well, I believe a friend of mine knows how to fix it.... I'm waiting for him to make it happen. Then we'll prove it. I'm just not going to reveal the details just yet.

[Coil Coyle]

Tanno, I wrote "Stator continuiously makes all the AC power it can, and sends it to RR."  You missed the part where the V stator is unregulated before the RR and generates max power regardless of load.  Regulation takes place within the RR, by the RR shunting excess power to ground.

The stator makes full voltage(V) all the time and the r/r ensures that the power(I) stays constant.

Tanno,
          This should state "The stator makes full voltage(V) all the time and the r/r ensures that the voltage out (E) stays constant" Power variations are shunted to ground so the stator always flows all of the current (I) that it is capable of generating.

        You may be on to something with your later reference to high volts and low current when disconnected. Variable resistance (regulator controlled) in the "Line" AC wires from the stator would lower current in the stator. Shunting or loading only increases the stator current. JMOS or FET inline with regulator feedback might be they direction to go. Honda has used SCR's with "near the peak triggering" to limit current from the stator. Controlling by turning the supply power on to the regulator by sensing the voltage below the rising voltage peak; rather than bleeding all of the power produced. The SCR's only send the "top" of the sine wave to the regulator. Thats what is on the 500/650 liquid cooled twins from the 80's

          Maybe we should try a Honda R/R with the SCR's on the stator lines?

$0.02
;)
Coil

[ironb12s]

Well, I believe a friend of mine knows how to fix it.... I'm waiting for him to make it happen. Then we'll prove it. I'm just not going to reveal the details just yet.

Well, the GO your friend!  Just tell him to compare the internal components of the R/R used by the Vision and those R/R used for higher capacities of current (AMPS) with the static rotor at the stator.  Is likely to find a cure right there.  Beef up the diodes, capacitor, the heat sink...

SCR is just another name for rectifier, which is a diode.  Passes the current in one direction only.  You could plug an LED in place of a rectify, and it would produce light before burning up due to the current in this case.

[Night Vision]

Well, I believe a friend of mine knows how to fix it.... I'm waiting for him to make it happen. Then we'll prove it. I'm just not going to reveal the details just yet.

any idea when this flux capacitor might be available for civilian consumption? I'm in the assembly stage on the project bike, and could wait a reasonable amount of time to avoid a shutdown to recore the reactor.... as long as I'm juiced up by say.. end of April / Mid May...  so I'd still have some time to shake it down before the spring rides or Americade

[ironb12s]

The initial stage of DrDoug's design was the rectifier section, which his design made a separate unit.  He used bridge rectifiers available from Radio Shack to accomplish this.  After all, the rectifier is there only to send DC to the Regulator.  :)

The hard part is the Regulator.  It's a finite number of components which could be controlled by IC or non-IC components.  I may go to my favorite boneyard and see if a vintage regulator might be had, one without a feed back to the alternator (rotor coil).  That is the basic difference between the Vision and anything newer, even some older.   8)  Most motorcycles have a capacity of around 30 amps.  The Wingabego might be more, so that may be a place to start with the motorcycles.

Any of youse guys 'Wingers as well as Visionaries?  I know there's a Venture contingent, y'all might have something to add.

[Rick G]

Trumph used a  Zener diode to regulate and control voltage . It was mounted on a  large finned  head sink under the headlight . There system was probably single phase .I don't remember,   butI wonder if some thing more modern in triplicate would work . It seems to me that the Ics necessary would have to be quite robust.

[ironb12s]

IC's haven't been the norm for Regulators that long ago.  Likely find something from the mid-1980's that doesn't have an IC.

[Cdnlouie]

This is history repeating itself for another generation of Visionaries.  It is a wonderful personal journey to discuss the Vision charging system.  Personally, I don't believe any known R/R design is a help for the design of the Vision stator.  The fundamental stator design is limited in durability that fact is well documented.  Heat is the killer of the stator and no R/R can reduce the heat, because it needs to keep the stator running continuously, to supply enough DC voltage to keep the bike operating under many different conditions.

The current (load) on the stator must run continuously (by design).  It either shunts it to ground (AC) and heat (cooling fins), or sends it through the diodes to DC.  Putting a ground on the DC side does nothing (except improve you ground connection, maybe) because the AC is internally grounded out.

The bottom line is that you can't do anything with the continuous output stator except reduce output (danger of not having enough output for running bike), increase quality of windings, contruction, etc.  I'm pretty sure that all of this has been done or no one has decided to build a stator that can outlast the rest of the Vision, yet. After all, there is no money in that option.

If you go back to the old days many stators had the magnets on the inside and the coils on the outside, this was a rock solid design that got good oil cooling and rarely ever burned out.  Our bike got an encased stator within a magnet rotor which became the tombstone of the Vision stator.  Very little oil cooling as well as increased radiant heat from the heavy rotor.  If you want to solve the Vision stator issue, build another bike with a different rotor and windings design.  The OEM Vision R/R's (and aftermarkets) work really well and rarely burn out, they are not the problem.  Give them a reliable stator design and they may well outlast the bike.  As a matter of fact, other bikes use the same stator today as recent as the 98-99 Honda CBR 900RR so the actual stator design itself is proven and pretty reliable.  Unfortunately, the internal engine design of the Vision is not so friendly to this well known stator and there lies the problem.   

Have fun guys  ;),

[ironb12s]

CDNLOUIE:

We shall see, after this new design is tested... the Buck regulator was not in the industry when these bikes were made.  Had it been, R/R and stator failures would've been history...

I'd give one to H2O for testing, as he's had the worst spate of failures...if his bike eats stators like candy, then it would be a great test for this design.

[Tanno]

I agree with the new design. I disagree with your statement the it will not stop the heat at the stator AND disagree about the stator having to stay 'loaded' at all times (AC or DC side).

AC power generators of all sizes aren't in a constant load state. Why shout our little V be any different?

[Tanno]

'why should our...'

(damn pda)

[ironb12s]

SO, how is the design coming?   :)

And, what will the production cost be?  Any estimates on either, yet?

[jasonm.]

Trust me, the oil cooler lowers temps, but so does adjusting the thermostat, neither one is proven to save a stator though... :(

Well, I have had my thermostat adjusted this way for a minimum of 10k. Which is more than many are seeing out of their stators. Now my bike has almost 28k on the original stator. ALL I know if you keep the majority of the engine cooler than the stator. Your engine will have more potential the pull those unwanted calories of heat away from the stator. I do also have 1157 front signals and other minor extra loads. So either the thermostat helps or I am down right lucky....no punn intended. The only other thing I was toying with was to put a higher capable R/R on. Like say one from a Venture.The Venture R/R is significantly larger than on the Vision. The Venture uses a 32A(420w) system @~13vdc.

[Lucky]

Our approches may be working, but there aren't enough of us doing coolers & tstat adjustments to tell...

[Rick G]

My feeling coincide with those of Cdnlouie, I'll believe it when I see it . we've been through this befor. But I hope this is the end solution.