Starter turns motor very slowly!

[Tiffanator]

So... continuing with my latest saga in Visionland... A friend who is an electrical engineer fixed my starter for me, it no longer whines and pukes black dust all over itself... however, the engine turns over painfully slowly now. I checked voltage at the starter motor with the button held down, it was showing just over 10 volts. My friend suggested the problem may be the old starter solenoid, so I borrowed the solenoid off my riding lawnmower and hooked it up, same issue. I then thought maybe it could be corrosion or old age in the cable from the solenoid to the starter. I made a new cable, same issue. The starter was rebuilt with new brushes and gaskets 2 years ago when the bike was running. It has sat unused since then. He turned the end of the commutator that contacts the brushes so it is nice and clean. He also cleaned everything up and did a good inspection on it. I do not doubt his ability one bit because the man is VERY smart, but I'm wondering if this starter is just done for. Any help? Battery is good. I put it on charge and try to start like that and it does the same thing. I wouldn't dare be as easy as just a dead battery... NO WAY.

Saga two... oh yes... its back... the fuel tank. It leaks... a lot.   >:(  I am left with a tough decision... faced with a bad starter, bad exhaust and bad gas tank... I put the bike on craigslist. I set the price high because I'll either get what I want for it... or I'll get around to fixing it and then get what I want for it. In the meantime if any of you are interested I'll sell it for cheap. It doesn't even have a title, was going to worry about applying for a title once the bike ran. Its getting closer and closer to spare parts.
My idea for the fuel tank... fiberglass with a kevlar layer for strength. Since the original tank (and bike in general) is a bear anyway, weight savings is not important enough to justify the expense of carbon fiber. I figure 1/4" to 3/8" fiberglass with one layer of kevlar fabric will give the needed strength. This is going to be a test project to see how it works out, I am going to be building a bike soon that will have a completely one off custom carbon fiber and kevlar tank.

With all of that said... I'm tired of this bike. I want it to move under its own power again, and mainly, I want it to move out of my shop so that I can start Project Tinee.

[QBS]

10 volts at the starter is about 2.26 volts shy of what should be there.  Use a multimeter and move upline from the starter attachement lug until you find 12.2+ volts.  Or, start at the battery and move toward the starter until you lose voltage.  The location that you end up at when starting from either point is  problem site.  Both of these procedures are predicated on there being 12.2+ volts availabe at the battery.

[Tiger]

 :) Try boosting it from your cage battery... and/or... It could also be that when the starter was rebuilt that the two satellite gears where misaligned, which can make them "bind"... and/or... the brushes are sticking and not making full contact  8)

Pity your not closer to my location...


                        8).......TIGER....... 8)

[Lucky]

  It could also be that when the starter was rebuilt that the two satellite gears where misaligned, which can make them "bind"

I'd bet good money on that, & best thing would be pull it now & douuble check it. don't crank it anymore, you'll wipe those gears out in short order...ask me how i know...

when you do check it, check that the small gears are not loose on their posts, that's where they'll wear.

--Lucky

[akvision]

Tiff, BDC says he has 4 spare tanks, they have some dents but they may not leak.  With your glassing skills you can make a dent diskappear.  QBS is right, you need a full 12+volts to get the starter to spin. 

You will be happier if it is running while you sell it.

[inanecathode]

For the record, 10 volts at the starter while it's turning is actually not a bad thing. Anything less than about 10 in the system will neuter the ignition, and it wont start (or likely wont, rule is 10-9.5 for cars). The starter is sucking up a huge amount of power (and some voltage, but not all of it which is good that its showing 10 at the starter) and it'll always drop the system voltage. You'd have problems if it was any lower, or really any higher.
The best thing you could do is get a hefty inline ammeter or a clamp on ammeter and put it around the starter lead and see how much power that sucker is pulling. You're either not getting enough voltage to the starter (unlikely, really. you'd see some serious smoke if it was upstream of the starter) or something is again wrong with the starter. I'd vote the second. I know it's supposedly rebuilt, but mistakes happen, and theres alot more in there than the brushes, and it's the only part you *know* was messed with.

[Tiffanator]

Hi guys, thanks for all the suggestions. Will start trying stuff tonight after work. First I'll yank off the starter and tear it down again to check the gears. Thats what I thought may be part of the problem, but I thought that if they got in a bind it wouldn't spin at all.

I had a guy email last night about my listing on craigslist... he can't pay my asking price because he would part the bike out on ebay but had other parts that he could trade me for it, which is tempting since I need a frame and motor to start my next project. Then the dang Vision tugged at my heart strings and made me feel bad about parting her out so I haven't emailed the guy back. I just can't spend anymore money on the Vision at this point. Stuff that I can put back together, clean up and have work I can do, but I can't buy a new starter, new exhaust, new tank and whatever.

After the repairs I did on an SV tank for a racebike I'm pretty confident I can fix just about any dent in a tank. I could strip my tank back to bare metal again and braze on patches, but I don't want to damage the POR-15 coating inside with the heat. Not sure how to approach it other than getting a new tank or building a new tank. Although apparently the coating has already been compromised enough to allow leaking. I don't know if its peeling, pinholed or just didn't cover well enough, but I know I can't give it another coating on top and I think kiwi has learned that it can't easily be removed.

The saga continues....

[sunburnedaz]

Pitty that you are in MS. My girlfriend loves passengering on this bike so much I would get another one and see if I could talk her into riding it.

[vadasz1]

Tiff, I think that you are capable of doing a 'vadasz1' repair to your tank.

First strip the whole bottom of the tank of paint and any body filler.  And do both the inside and outside of the tank where the beveled surface leaves the seam and transitions into the side surface.  Then cut strips of fiberglass that is as long as the bottom lower tank section.  lay two layers of matting on both the inside and outside.  Once it has cured you can do what I do and fill in the void from the seam to the horizontal surface with body filler.  Sand smooth and prime and paint again.  This you can do during a weekend. 

So far I have done a few tanks like this for Tiger and not one has leaked.  And I have two more to complete in my shop as well.

Let us know how it turns out.

[Tiffanator]

sunburnedaz... yeah, it is a pity. If you lived closer you and your girl could come kick my ass and make me finish the bike. Haha.  ;D

vadasz... So you basically cover from the seam around the bottom and to the underside with fiberglass? I thought of doing this but I'm not entirely sure of the long term reliability of resin vs gas. Did you use polyester resin or epoxy resin? I have glass mat and cloth and both kinds of resin so I'm ready. I also have kitty hair and two kinds of body filler.  :P

[vadasz1]

I'll have to check tomorrow back at the shop.  If I remember it was a fiberglass kit that came in a box made by BONDO.  Epoxy or Poly I can't remember.

But I know that my tank doesn't leak and neither do any that went thru Tiger's den.

[Tiffanator]

If it was a bondo kit it was most likely a poly. I haven't been able to find an epoxy resin kit anywhere in town, I order from US Composites. My problem is that my tank has pinholes in visible parts of the tank. So I would have to reshape the side of the tank so the transition from metal to fiberglass isn't showing. I can do that, but I don't want a bulge or odd transition line on the tank. Oh well... I like a challenge as long as it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg. The tank is pretty much garbage as is, can't hurt it.

[Tiffanator]

Ok, took the starter apart and investigated it. Planetary gears were aligned but will wiggle on their posts and it looks like a wear pattern is developing on the plate under them. That's bad right?

[Lucky]

not necessarily, they could have been one tooth off & you didn't notice it before you took them apart.

--there should be some heavy grease in there too btw.
--use a straight edge to make sure the gears are absolutley even.
--make sure the smalll locating tabs on both ends are straight & catch their slots.
--bench test the starter with jumper cables on a car battery.  hang on to that baby tight!
if it spins fast, reinstall it & see if it's better, if so you win, if not then start looking elsewhere (jump off a non running car battery first test)

--Lucky

[YellowJacket!]

sunburnedaz... yeah, it is a pity. If you lived closer you and your girl could come kick my ass and make me finish the bike. Haha.  ;D

vadasz... So you basically cover from the seam around the bottom and to the underside with fiberglass? I thought of doing this but I'm not entirely sure of the long term reliability of resin vs gas. Did you use polyester resin or epoxy resin? I have glass mat and cloth and both kinds of resin so I'm ready. I also have kitty hair and two kinds of body filler.  :P

heck, how bout I just come down there and do it instead.  ;-)

David

[Tiffanator]

If any of you guys want to come give me a hand with this thing... fixing it or pushing it off a cliff... I have a spare room and can cook.  ;D

Anywhoo... its been raining non stop today and is a little chilly so haven't been out working on the vision. I think I'm going to go out right now and bring the starter into the garage, hook it up with the car battery and probably blow something up. Woohoo!  :laugh:

[akvision]

Tiff,
I can't even get into your neighborhood until next May.  Sorry.

[YellowJacket!]

On my way down.  But....I'm going to pull while you push!  I'm not going to let that thing go over a cliff!!  You've worked too hard and come too far.
Besides, you'd probably climb down, pick up all the parts and start putting it all back together again.

David

[Tiffanator]

akvision... that's ok man.  ;)

David... I hope you are stronger than me cause I'd hate for you to go over the cliff with it.  :laugh: I'm kidding.. there aren't any cliffs here high enough to do ample damage to satisfy me. I'll light it on fire and roast marshmallows over the burning carcass. Kidding again. You're right, I would probably pick up all of the pieces and start trying to get it to run, cause I certainly wouldn't push it back up the hill.  8)

So the starter smells like burnt electrical and has more black powder in it. My electrical engineer friend says that is not entirely a bad thing, to hook it up to the car (engine off of course) and if it still doesn't turn faster then it may be junk. Its almost like you guys know what you are talking about. Haha.  :D

[QBS]

If it still turns low, be certain that the planetary gears are correctly aligned before you declare it beyond repair.  If it's properly assembled, it should fairly jump out of your hand when hit with 12.2+ volts.