Riders Of Vision

I've owned this v too long, done too much to it, and like it far to much to tolerate this crap anymore.

Every time. EVERY DAMN TIME i put fuel in it, i have to worry, no, fret, no! Panic! About the possibility of it puking all the fuel back out all over my crotch, setting the bike and my crotch on fire, then flipping end over end into a puppy orphanage (well at least the firey-crotch scenario). This has happened WAY more than it should, and i'd like to fix it.

I know of the 'drill a hole in the neck' trick, but im not sure if that totally satisfies me. Does this fix it end-all? I had the thought to cut the baffle totally out of it, that stupid neck that makes it impossible to drain when you're lining the tank, you know. That's a bmw thing, i guess you get more fuel capacity, but i'd like to just jam the gas schnoz in the thing, pull the trigger, then pull it out.

Drill the hole in the neck and do not overfill. Stop when you get to the neck. Hard to believe but the neck is there as a safety feature to prevent overfilling. If you cut the neck out and fill to the top, it will puke fuel at every fillup.

Oh com on! where's your SENSE OF ADVENTURE?  Anyway, i just toss mine over my shoulder & merily whistle on my way...   :) :)

 :) Yes it does "fix it"... 8)

When you remove the gas cap and peer inside, you will find a lip were the cap locks in...yep, that's it...Now, with a 1/16", 3/32" size drill bit in your drill, drill through the lip, right on the "shoulder" edge at a 45 degree angle....and keep going right through the baffle wall. Do this at opposite sides of the lip...VOILA!!!
I can fill right up and have nooooo pukin' what so ever... 8)

As for a "SENSE OF ADVENTURE" Lucky...I do this with a full tank of gas and without a safety net!!!!! I KNOW, I KNOW David...this is NOT recommended and is not for the faint of heart :o ::)

                 

Goodness gracious! Great balls o'fire!  Couldn't resist.
I've learned after many gallns of wasted fuel and the possibiity of igniting me and YJ into a flaming bal of frustration that I fill my tank slowly and not all the way. Then I rock back and forth to burp it then fill a little more.  While not the full capacity, it works.
I've also seen things like spill bibs and overflow protection cups but have not used them.
I guess the other option would be to mod the fuel filler with one of those cool aluminum race car filler openings.

David

  Inane, ;D Come-on Its a real simple fix. I had the Red n white drilled before I met you at the 25th in Colorado. 
     Although I suppose I put somethings off as well, but couldn't get much of a long day in, without a full tank and a lap full of fuel!
               ;)Cheers Ken S.

Hunk-a-hunk of burnin' love :)

I fell in to a burning ring of fire...

Yes, drilling the hole(s) in the CORRECT spot is critical. You will see a ridge as Tiger describes. You want it at or above that groove or "ridge". I put 2 holes. 3 and 9 o'clock. Using a 12 inch long 1/16" bit. Being such a long and flexible bit you will when you succeed. This way no matter how the bike is tilted...no pressure forces gas thru the cap. UNLESS I get careless.

Hey, my beemer has a drilled sleeve and a drain built into the tank recess... just good engineering.  you do have to remove the petcocks to get all the stuff out though.

I do know your frustration, I drilled the BluV tank per Tiger's spec.   And I will drill the black tank for the next owner before I send it off, whomever that might be.
the AKV tank is still available for whomever.

You have a fuel tank available?  I'm new here and am just learning but my tank needs some serious help and if you have one that doesn't leak???????  Well, I'm interested.  Also, I've only filled up 4 times so far......no issues with burping/overflowing.  I always fill on the side stand.  Is this making a difference or am I just fortunate?
Thanks,
Ben

I'll probably just drill it then, if it's that good :P

The whole point is, i dont want to have to go through a special procedure every time i want to fill my bike up. Believe it or not i have better things to do than to sit there for 10 minutes slowly filling it and humping the tank to rock the bike back and forth. I'd rather just pull up, stick the thing in, fill it to the bottom of the neck, then leave.

well said !!

Quote from: inanecathode on February 11, 2010, 09:39:45 AM
I'd rather just pull up, stick the thing in, fill it to the bottom of the neck, then leave.

somebodys been hanging out on Craigslist again! lol  :o ;)

Just make sure its empty when you drill.  :-)

You'll be a ledgend around here if you don't.

David

Quote from: YellowJacket! on February 11, 2010, 01:22:38 PM
Just make sure its empty when you drill.  :-)

You'll be a ledgend around here if you don't.

David

Actually, i'd rather have it full. Vapors are what burn/explode, not liquid the less that's there the better off you'd be. I'll probably be hosing it down with oil to keep the chips/sparks down.

  Inane!
        What are you waiting on - do you have a " sharp drill bit "  ?  Put this poor tank into full service and enjoy your lack of long rides  and drill it !
You can do this without a full tank or with a full tank, You don't need a 12" drill bit either a 1/8" will also do just use a sharp one min. friction & heat.
          Try it
           Ken S. on the way home! ;D ;D
         

Inane is very correct, the full tank is far safer than an empty one full of vapor.

That new rider asking about a tank that doesn't leak, has anyone risen to the query?

I make sure my tank spews at least once a year....so I has to wacks zit


I put SmokeBomb away this fall/winter and it was quite cold.... filled the tank to the brim and the next 40 deg day, I had spillage  >:(

The Query is about my AkVision Tank.   I will pm Ben.

Inane, don't blow your self up.  It will give you a chance to clean the tank too.  They all accumulate crud and water.

Quote from: akvision on February 11, 2010, 08:02:06 PM
The Query is about my AkVision Tank.   I will pm Ben.

Inane, don't blow your self up.  It will give you a chance to clean the tank too.  They all accumulate crud and water.

Thats the thing, its por-15'd already, and the holes are all sealed up with jb. The tank is actually probably 95% good, the 5 percent being it puking on me and a few paint chips.

And the stupid petcock that doesnt work, but its an 83 and they dont make rebuilds ><

What's wrong with the petcock?

I can rebuild the petcock, but it means sending it to me & being without...  & i haven't got the fastest turnaround time on record, but i'm cheap, lol

Quote from: QBS on February 12, 2010, 02:43:45 PM
What's wrong with the petcock?

Doesnt work. Turn the bike off, fuel still flows out.

Quote from: Lucky on February 12, 2010, 03:27:46 PM
I can rebuild the petcock, but it means sending it to me & being without...  & i haven't got the fastest turnaround time on record, but i'm cheap, lol

What do you charge, what's your turn around time, and do you have a reasonable guarantee?

I bet the gaurantee is for as long as an original Vision stator will last.   8)

Ok, here's what's up. how well the rebuild works depends on the condition of the petcock. 

what i've found typicly is that the seating surface for the dual diaphram is corroded, so that needs to be cleaned up. i've had some so bad that i've had to build it back up with epoxy.  aparently this particular design tends to trap moisture where the 82 design doesn't. aluminum doesn't rust, but it does corrode, so the combination of fuel & water eats it away.

the mounting plate where the tubes fit also tend to corrode away & this will be fixed as well.  i have had one so bad that it was almost paper thin.

combine this with an old stiff diaphram & it leaks.

what i do is clean up & examine the petcock body & repair as needed. it's all done freehand & with a dremil.

Then the buttons in the old diaphram get removed & are modified to come apart. drilled & tapped so they can be assembled on new diaphram material.  Note that the old diaphram looks molded to move in & out, but the new material is straight. I do not know if the original diaphram was made this way, or if it streched out over years of use...

the whole thing is reassembled & tested with a little air pressure & soap.

Now, it's cold out here, & my shop is a simple metal building with no insulation and a small heater.  so if you want it done in the near future, i'll be miserable while doing it & that raises the price.  I'm not just throwing parts at it, it's labor intensive, takes time & craftsmanship.

Plus i really don't know if my fix works....i did mine & 4 years + later it's still going strong, with no inline shutoff valve.  i've done probably 8 or 9 of them & really never heard back from anyone as to how their holding up.  I assume if they still leak i'd have heard from them...

cost is $60 plus shipping both ways.  you must include both tubes.  figure 2 weeks or so to get it back.

gaurantee? very similar to Fords 5/50 warrenty of years past: 5 feet or 50 seconds, whichever comes first...  of course if it still leaks, i'll be happy to look at it again, no charge, but your still paying shipping both ways.  sorry about that, but i have the wife out of work, & two teenagers without jobs, plus i've started a side business doing small engine repair, so time is at a premium...

--Lucky

 heres an idea for all of you guys... if its empty fill the tank with carbonminoxide (you know that smelly gas that comes out of exhaust pipes... lol) there wont be any combustion of fuel vapors with out oxygen.... works very well.... thats what i did when i welded a patch in my suzuki gs550 and i had no explosion at all


[/glow]

Note to all:  You'll notice that in Luckys' above post, he makes mention of water/corrosion damage to various petcock parts and componets.  This is another example of easily avoidable fuel system damage caused by water in the fuel tank.  The FIX: regular use of gasoline dewaterer products.  Add a bottle of isoprople alcohol to the tank about once every two months, and worry no more.

I've been doing this for 20 years and my '83s' tank is as solid as the day it left the factory.

Can one of you fine gentlemen please post a pic of the exact location of the holes?  It sounds easy enough, but I'm not clear on just where to place the drill...  as they say "one picture is worth a thousand words". 
Thanks,
              Steve

QBS, they started ethanol gas here 7 years ago. NOW, everyone has water in the tank in the summer time when humdity is high. Ethanol sucks water right out of the air.  I have bought, so called water removers and do a test in my clear glass beer mug using the 10% ethanol gas we have. Just 4 ounces...wait 1 hour and water appears at the bottom. But I have yet to find one that removes the water in any way. But I have only tried 3 brands.  Anyone can do my test on a warm summer day...the more humid the better.  If you don't get water at the bottom...you don't have ethanol. Ethanol is a death sentence to fuel tanks and fuel systems alike.

f-d

I drilled at 12 o'clock, just one hole at the top of the collar, inside the tank, angled at 45 degrees. (3/16")  Drill down and you will not screw up. There is a seam to help guide you. One hole because, I didn't want a bunch of metal shavings in the tank.

No pics, my tank is in Denver, and I am in the great white north at the moment.

The collar in the filler of the tank has a groove formed into the metal so you can get your drill to bite.  It is just below the outside skin of the tank.  Should be easy.

Quote from: jasonm. on February 18, 2010, 07:38:40 PM
QBS, they started ethanol gas here 7 years ago. NOW, everyone has water in the tank in the summer time when humdity is high. Ethanol sucks water right out of the air.  I have bought, so called water removers and do a test in my clear glass beer mug using the 10% ethanol gas we have. Just 4 ounces...wait 1 hour and water appears at the bottom. But I have yet to find one that removes the water in any way. But I have only tried 3 brands.  Anyone can do my test on a warm summer day...the more humid the better.  If you don't get water at the bottom...you don't have ethanol. Ethanol is a death sentence to fuel tanks and fuel systems alike.

You do know that ethanol is alcohol, right? As well as isopropyl and methanol? All three are really good fuel dehydrators. Either your testing is wrong, or you live in some sort of weird physics vortex.

Every time, every time a locale switches from mtbe to ethanol, this kind of stuff gets stirred up. My bike doesnt have any power, my carbs clogged, my fuels going bad, my tank is rusting out, all of that. Colorado has been using ethanol blends (at least in the winter, cold weather volitility and some suspicious sounding rationalization that it reduces co) since 1988. I've never heard someone say "dont buy that bike, it's been ehtanol'd!.

Anywho, i'm just bored. Back to the gas tank stuff:
I'll get to it when i'm done doing the offroad bike, making some bags for it. Petcock is just getting a couple on off valves (a-la qbs). If i can't get the petcock rebuild kit, or have anyone do it (sorry lucky but i do no-guarantee work every day on my own stuff i dont need help heh) i'll just put in those manual shut offs, or just leave it... I dunno, i have to study it some more.

I'm not sure what the difference is between the '82 and '83 tanks but from looking at my '82 it looks to be a simple job to make a plate to bolt to the bottom of the tank and you could fit most any petcock to that.  Drills, taps, gasket material, assorted hardware, and appropriate screws could make your world a happier place.

Fret, the '83 fuel system provides for fuel recirculation back to the tank.  The '82 system makes no provision for unused fuel to be returned to the tank.  Thus, the respective petcocks are not interchangeable.  Thus, they require different sized tank mounts ('83 is larger).  Thus, the tanks are not interchangeable.

So you are saying that I couldn't use an 83 petcock on an 82 tank, even if I were to make an adaptor plate from say 1/4" alum. flat bar?

thanks, QBS


good stuff to know.  I did not know that!

everyone fyi, my tanks are 82's

akv

That and the giant hole for the fuel sender.

Quote from: vadasz1 on February 19, 2010, 01:04:10 PM
So you are saying that I couldn't use an 83 petcock on an 82 tank, even if I were to make an adaptor plate from say 1/4" alum. flat bar?

:) The '83 petcock is larger than the '82...so you would need to open the '82 petcock hole, then redrill and tap it. The only reason for this would be if you were to install '83 carbs on your '82...for some reason :o ::)

                   

Why don't we look into adapting a petcock from a different machine. After all they are just Vacuum activated taps right? I am sure there must be something out there that has a similar spec with respect to the VAC pressure and sorta the same size. I am assuming here that doing metal work on the tank is not a big deal for someone with a welder and a lil bit of Know-how as compared to struggling over a tiny corroded Aluminium tap that leaks.

This is just an Theory of mine which i intend on following up on. Please do raise any issues you think i may need to pay heed to

I have test run my '83 using a pony tank and a blocked fuel return line.  On the test stand the bike appears to run as if the return line was allowed to drain into a catch can.  Perhaps it would be possible to run an '82 tank into a '83 set of carbs with blocked fuel return functions.  When I get my tank reinstalled as part of the current fuel system maintenance activity, I'll take the bike for a road test and close off the return line in line cut off valve and see what happens.  I doubt that it will run much different than with the valve open.  But...Stop and go traffic at 98 degrees F. might make a big diffence in driveability.  Legend has it that one of the big '83 carb improvements was a fuel recirculation system to cure a hot weather vapor lock problem that apparently '82s' could succumb to.

Today while shaking my tank with some chain inside to knock the rust loose, thoughts of rust prevention began to circulate in my imagination.  The main problem as I see it is the low areas that are lower than the petcock where water accumulates.  Has anyone tried cutting off the bottom edge of the tank (removing the low areas) and welding in a plate that would make the petcock the lowest spot?  What I'm suggesting would reduce the tank capacity by about a pint or so.

Since ethanol is in most of our gas we can pretty much count on getting some water in the tank.  If the petcock were the lowest spot in the tank the water would regularly be removed and thereby would not accumulate and cause rust.

Since my lumpy tank doesn't have any rust holes (yet) and I haven't seen other leaky Vision tanks my assumption is that the lower edge of the tank is where most everyone's tanks leak.  Is this correct?

Jason, i've done just that, ran my 83 carbs off an 82 tank & blocked off the return. it worked fine, for about a season, then i located an 83 tank.

Raj & Fret, sure most things can be adapted, I made an oil cooler for my Touring Vision, and have rebuilt the 83 petcock, but these are not 'typical' or common repairs. anyone can solve these problems with enough knowlege & resources, so 'fixes' for them are not new ideas, but there are no 'bolt & go" solutions other than ta cut-off valve.

Inanecathode,
no problem on not wanting to go with my fix, it seems to work, but honestly i first did it to see if i could, & a few ppl have asked to have theirs done, so i did. i suppose if you wanted to keep the bike 'original' it's one way to go.  personally, i'd just throw a cut off valve on there & be on my way.

And for everyone:
As far as ethanol is concerned, it's a product knowlege deal.  It's an issue of neglect & ignorance more than anything else. Note that I use ignorance not as a negitive, to me it means lack of knowlege, not stupid.  I say this because of what I know.  Working on small engines every day, i see firsthand the problems ethanol can cause.  for most people it isn't an issue, & here's why:

What i deal with are mostly high quality pieces of equipment, used by professionals, & used frequently. we have E-10 here, & have for years.  Ethanol is hygroscopic, that is, it'll absorb water right from the air. left to sit long enough, water will collect in the tank (most anything with a tank has a vent)

for Example: if the tank of a 2 stroke chainsaw/weedeater/blower sits long enough, say sitting a season with a full tank, enough water will collect to get stired into the fuel as the machine is run. the machine may or may not run poorly because water doesn't burn.  the problem comes when that machine is then allowed to sit.  now you have water particals in the carb & the steel springs & needles, etc in the carb WILL RUST. Disolving gummed up gas is not a problem at this point, disolving rust is another matter.  2 stroke carbs have tiny passages (like ours) that if clogged with rust, are cheaper to replace than repair (i get $60/hour at work, & $30/h at home for labor)

Ethanol has now caused an expensive problem.

But, if the vehicle is run frequently, ethanol is less of a problem, the fuel is allways fresh and is used before it has time to draw water.

Now, there is one big difference between 2 stroke machines & bikes, cars, snowmobiles, etc.  the latter have metal tanks & since they tend to ALLWAYS have fuel in them, & the generally never have the fuel completely drained, so water can collect at the bottom of the tank & cause rust if it sits for long periods. If the vehicle tends to get filled before it gets low, & is used frequently (daily driver) any water accumulation is slight & probably will get sloshed around enough to get mixed in & pass straight thru the fuel system without a problem.

a couple of things to keep in mind:
--ethanol and infrequent use are a bad combination.
--'dewaterers' are basicly alcahol (sp) based & are realy intended to keep water already there from freezing the fuel lines in cold climates if used immediatly before freezing conditions occure. THERE IS NOT A PRODUCT ON THE MARKET THAT WILL BIND TO WATER BETTER THAN WATER. you can add these products to your tank, but they bind better to the gas than the water. the water WILL seperate out anyway.
--ethanol is mixed into the fuel at the tanker filling depot, not the refinery.  do not trust the calibration of those pumps.  I regularly test for ethanol content at my local stations, & the results are not what i would call consistant...
--count on E-15 to become law this August.

--Lucky

Lucky your observations are right on. You obviously come from the same "neck of the woods" as me.  Ya, RI is not far from CT.  If they go to E-15...kiss your simple lives behind. And expect to be flushing(not drive) your fuel system once a month and rebuild carbs once a year.   Maybe drain the tank and let it dry out at end of the season. Especially if you have more than one bike like me.  F**king corn growers and politicians can't sell enough to make food.

Quote from: jasonm. on February 28, 2010, 11:51:57 AM
Lucky your observations are right on. You obviously come from the same "neck of the woods" as me.  Ya, RI is not far from CT.  If they go to E-15...kiss your simple lives behind. And expect to be flushing(not drive) your fuel system once a month and rebuild carbs once a year.   Maybe drain the tank and let it dry out at end of the season. Especially if you have more than one bike like me.  F**king corn growers and politicians can't sell enough to make food.

Once again, everyone in colorado has had the EVIL ETHANOL! for more than 20 years. Theres still motorcycles around here, and they have all the problems everyone else has. Theres not some huge carb shortage here, or tank shortage. I'll just say straight up, saying you have to rebuild your carbs once a year because theres alcohol in the fuel is just plain ignorant.

inanecathode,

What i said, was that if your going to store anything with gas in it, that has ethanol, your better off removing the fuel unless you WANT water in the system next time you run it.

it doesn't take long to absorb enough water to produce rust.

and I said 'daily drivers' are not prone to these problems.

i haven't even mentioned that ethanol burns dirtier than straight gas, produces less power, or costs more to produce.  I understand the need to reduce our dependancy on oil imports, & for my cars that's fine, but not in my small engine equipment or bikes.

--Lucky

I'm sure the epa would love to hear why ethanol burns dirtier than gas, or more specifically mtbe. That's exactly why fuel in this state *has* ethanol in it. It doesnt cost more to produce, that's once again why they're using it. Its the cheapest most effective octane additive available right now. It has nothing to do with foreign oil. It's just one more thing we use that's basically "the best way to do it right now".

My dad's 'non' daily driver 1965 chevy caprice has sat for a decade in the same spot with that evil ethanol crap. No leaks, no problems whatsoever. In fact, it was started last spring with no problems.

it smells funny, mpg is lower, and produces less power...

piss me off 3 times, and you're not my friend

Quote from: Lucky on March 03, 2010, 06:42:56 AM
inanecathode,

What i said, was that if your going to store anything with gas in it, that has ethanol, your better off removing the fuel unless you WANT water in the system next time you run it.

it doesn't take long to absorb enough water to produce rust.

and I said 'daily drivers' are not prone to these problems.

i haven't even mentioned that ethanol burns dirtier than straight gas, produces less power, or costs more to produce.  I understand the need to reduce our dependancy on oil imports, & for my cars that's fine, but not in my small engine equipment or bikes.

--Lucky

Lucky could not have put it simpler. Something I have trouble doing. ME, having more than 1 bike. Which makes the sitting more common than those with only 1 bike. But again. It takes just a few hours in the summer for the water to accumulate.  I challange all who doubt me, to do the "glass test".

MTBE isn't used anymore because it contaminates ground water, it has nothing to do with EPA...

My solution for any water in the gas has been to add a serving of Methylated Spirits to the tank now and again, it raises the octane rating of the water somewhat.........

I tested some in a water/gas mix in a glass jar just to see what was happening in the tank.
If shaken the watered down meths emulsifies with the gas readily enough but in normal bike use I would say it just passes through the system, where it burns okay and just smells a tad odd.

Found this interesting,two parts dealing with Henry Ford and Rudolf Diesel and bio-fuels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGZEMwMx2vk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR58dWGeBks