Riders Of Vision

Ok, I screwed up a little here (no pun intended). I wasn't anticipating how tight this particular bolt was going to be, and I started to strip out the head when I did it by hand, then I went and bought an impact driver (which I needed anyways) but since the head was already kind of stripped out and it's in such a tight place, the driver did nothing. So then I went and bought some screw-out bits for my drill and they really did the most damage. I'd rather be spending my money on parts instead of tools at this point and now I think I'm going to have to save this part till last when I can take it to a shop and have them extract it.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/munkyfistfight/DSC00009.jpg)

Does anyone have any solutions to possibly getting it out before I take it to a shop? I was going to try to get some liquid wrench and a "bolt-out" bit for my drill. Has anyone had any problems in this little nook of the bike before? This is the bolt that holds the clutch release mechanism in place (but I'm sure you guys knew that)

PB Blaster is better than Liquid Wrench.  I was a big fan of Liquid Wrench until Lucky mentioned PB.  That stuff is great.  If you can find it, Aero-Kroil is good too but nearly impossible to find.  PB is available at most auto parts & hardware stores.

As buggered up as that screw head is, you're pretty much limited to an extractor.  Too confined to get anything in to cut a straight slot in the head. Try soaking for  while with PB & use a left hand drill bit (if you can find one - try a machinist's supply shop).  The combination of PB, heat & vibration of the counterclockwise drilling may just loosen it up.

Others may have good ideas as well.

H₂O

Quote from: h2olawyer on December 21, 2006, 06:43:09 PM

Try soaking for  while with PB & use a left hand drill bit (if you can find one - try a machinist's supply shop).  The combination of PB, heat & vibration of the counterclockwise drilling may just loosen it up.
Others may have good ideas as well.

all good ideas (heat from a propane torch)
I found LH bits at Sears (of all places).

drill normally into the culprit with a generous sized bit... not too big that there won't be anything to grab... (or else you'll really be screwed) and try an easyout or LH drill bit after lots of PBB and some heat and just plain old whacking it to set up some vibration for the blaster to work/set in

heat the aluminum area around it before applying spray oil. the oil will get sucked in the threaded area by capillary action where it can do some work. not red hot, just hot. then drill a proper, deep enough, hole for the extractor. you can also use a punch and hammer to tap it counterclockwise. try these methods after heat and oil.

Before applying any type of flame or high heat, Clean Off That Grease!  You do not want anything flammable there when you apply a flame or high heat.

Brian

Since the screw is in such a confined area consider using a really sharp chisel with as narrow a cutting edge angle as possible to make a slot across the screw head.  Then use your new impact driver with a thin flat blade bit in it to break the screw loose.  Of course,  soak the area in PB Blaster first.  The idea of heating the area before applying the Blaster sounds good.

When you hit the impact driver with your first blow, make it a really good one.  Really give it your best shot.  Do whatever you can to make the blow as dead on straight and with as much swing freedom as you can.  The hammer of choice would be a 3 lb. hand sledge.   Hold the impact driver preloaded in the counter clockwise direction when you strike it.

If your first blow doesn't do the job, the head of the screw will probably be so trashed that your only other options will be to either use some type of screw extraction system or use a drill to completely remove the head of the screw.

FYI:  In the future, where possible, always use an impact driver to break screws loose first.  Then use a screw driver or the impact driver itself to complete the removal by hand.

Also, use an impact driver for the final twist during reassembly.  BUT, no more than two blows for steel threads and one blow for aluminum threads.  The best procedure is to get the screw fairly tight by hand using the impact drive as a hand held screw driver, then give it one, or two at the most, hammer blows.  Be careful and thoughtful, impact drivers are very powerful tools and will easily strip out threads, especially aluminum ones.  Steel threads are a little more forgiving.  Even so, don't take them for granted.

Thanks guys!  :D I'm going to spend this weekend cleaning as much of that cruddy grease out of there. It's been like that since I got the bike 4 years ago. That'll involve me moving the bike out of the bedroom and on to the porch.  >:( I was thinking for the heat I could use one of those benzo-torches from walmart. I don't think I'll need anything heavy duty.

How exactly does the PB work? Is it like a lubricant or does it loosen the grip on the bolt? I'm curious too how I should go about "soaking" the bolt in this stuff. I think I'll dig out the chisel and try to get my impact driver in there before I do any drilling. I guess I should make a christmas list of some tools I should definitely own  :P

PB Blaster is an aerosol like WD-40 but has something in it that eats the rust.  they say it uses capillary action to get into the threads.  However it does it, it works great.

Frozen fasteners are a pain in the @$$!

H₂O

Super handy tool:
get a Deremil (or black-n-decker) tool with cut-off wheels. you can cut a slot in a bolt & use the impact driver method below.

I have to take exception with QBS's suggestion of using an impact driver to tighten bolts.  the hardest bolts to remove are those that have been overtightened! in the automotive industry, we say they were installed by gorillas....  installing bolts into an aluminum threaded case with unkown force is asking begging for trouble!!

to properly fasten inportaint bolts like head bolts they should be tightened in 3 stages using a torque wrench, in a criss-cross pattern. most bolts on the bike will only be tightened to inch pounds.  the amount of the first 2 stages may seem rediculusly light, but it's the proper way to do it.

to properly loosen bolts, use a 6 point socket (not 12 point) and a long breaker bar to 'crack' the bolts free.  the longer the bar the better (more leverage.)  loosen screws, with an impact driver set to 'reverse'

I would suggest soaking every visible bolt in PBlaster for at least a day if not longer. (soak a rag in pblaster & keep it over the bolt. pblaster does dry out, but be careful, it is flamable!!! (don't smoke or use a torch anywhere near the rags!)

I've never said this before, but that bike is a real basket case... i'm not sure it's even worth fixing, or even for parts..  i hope my saying that makes you want to prove me wrong, & that you do, but sometimes you have to weigh 'worth'....  if you do decide to restore it, you have my full support, but visions in much better shape have been parted out (more good parts for you though!)

which ever way you go, best of luck!!

--Lucky

and my apologies to QBS, for whom i have the utmost respect, but we've had a lot of alternate points of view lately... i've NEVER IN MY LIFE stripped threads out of anything...

Lucky:  My entire post was specificaly addressed to the use of impact drivers to facilitate the removal and installation of SCREWS....not bolts. 

i wouldn't use an impact driver to install screws either.  if there are no torque specks given for a fastener (other than standard specs for fastener size) such as screws, than 'hand tight' is all that is required. if further security is needed due to vibration or heating/cooling cycles, then a split, star or lock washer should be used.

smaller shaft screws are even more of a pain to get out...

Interesting.  You completely misinterpeted my post, didn't acknowledge your error, and then critically carried on without further thought.  And you're right, we have had  "a lot of alternate points of view lately".

I got a tool kit at Advanced autoparts for just that thing.  It looks like  a socket wrench set but it has reversed teeth in the socket that are razer sharp (um, dont ask how I know but for those of you that know me, its a s sharp  as the bagle slicer).  You use it just like you would a socket wrench and i bithes into the screw or bolt head and pulls it right out.  Thats how I was able to get the soft screws out of my carbs.  Its made bu a company called "Irwin" and comes in two different sized sets.  I payed about 20.00 for mine and it was WELL worth it.  Works even better with PB Blaster.

David

Forgot all about those - Sears sells them, too.  They work great & no drilling!

H₂O

i must be lazy, bolts are popped with pbb and a 36 in breaker bar, screws ith pb and a working screw driver. it if strips, i drill it out, tap it next size up and then drop a lil bit of anti sieze on it ,so i dont face that same screw again .    the sears set is good, ,the set fro m advance is too,  the snap on set is useless,,, they dont seem to bite well into anything  traded mine from snap on for a zytel bodied die grinder - doesnt get cold when in use like old steel bodied ones .

  I would lay the bike on it's side, strike the head with a sharp chisel...  then use a impact driver.   The shock of the chisel, followed by the shock of impact should do the trick.   I've been putting never-sieze on the threads of everything for awhile now, you'll thank youself the next time you take it apart.  Make sure the driver is set for loosening, and give it a slight preload counterclockwise, then one good blow with two pound hammer.

True, my bike has seen better days, but as far as I can see, it's mechanically sound. I definitely don't want something that looks nice or that I will regret damaging. All in all, this is just a fun project for me, and if it costs some to get it running than so be it.
Thanks for being honest, but I'm going to take my chances getting her running. I've done work on cars before and thought I'd try sinking my teeth into something a bit more delicate.

The clutch release mechanism was broken where the cable connects when I got it. I pulled the case sides and valve covers to see if there was anything wrong on the inside and everything turns nicely. One camshaft was welded to the sprocket for reasons unknown but nothing else seems wrong. The stator seems to be burnt, but I'm going to post a picture to see what you guys think. The fuel tank was destroyed and the instrument cluster and seat were damaged from being exposed to the elements. The pipes were a bit rusty as well. :-P

Other than that, the bike just needs some love. I have it stripped down to the bare minimum so I can work on it, and I'm learning alot about the nuances of mechanics which to me are invaluable.

I know I ask alot of questions and I really appreciate everyones help. Thankyou for all of the helpful tips and if I happen to meet you guys on the road someday, the first round is on me.

-Nate

 :) I'm ripping down a motor for spare's...let me know if you need anything... ;) This "Family" will help you get her running...one way or another  ;D :D... ;)

                   

For the motor, if you've got a decent stator and a clutch-release rod, let me know :-p There's a shiny penny in it for ya  :D

Quote from: munkyfistfight on December 22, 2006, 12:16:25 PM
For the motor, if you've got a decent stator and a clutch-release rod, let me know :-p There's a shiny penny in it for ya  :D

:) Sorry no stator  :'( , however, I have the clutch parts you require  8) ...p.m. me your name/address.


                         

 :) MFF...Removed, cleaned and packed. I included the Screw and retaining ring, as well... ::) They went out in the mail this morning. Make a donation to the ROV site...just hit the PAYPAL donate  button at the top of the page.

               

I don't reconize the part you are working on, But don't hammer on it any more. Get a 6mm or a 1/4" reverse drill bit, available at Sears, auto part stores etc. You have to have a revesable drill as well. You already have a counter sunk hole that will center your drill bit, hold your drill straight and put some pressure on it, sometimes the screw will back right out, if not drill through the head of the screw to the shank about 3/16" deep, the head will now come off, and you can remove the assembly. With the pressure off of the screw the shank will come out easley.

Ken G.

In the aircraft field we run into the same issue, steel fasteners in aluminum. There have been several very good ideas mentioned here. My sequence would have been as follows: first, try a PROPERLY SIZED screwdriver, not the one laying closest ot you on the floor, then if that failed I would move up to the impact screwdriver and some PB Blaster. If it is still not cooperating, a little heat (aluminum transfers heat quite well, and that works in our favor) followed with some more persuasion of the impact screwdriver. If still no go, the left hand drill bit would be next. I purchased a set from sears also and found that if I start with a smaller bit then move up to a larger bit, the larger bit can achieve a better bite. Two tricks here though, the first is know when to stop. I f you drill the head completely off then you have to change your game plan. The second, and this is a closely guarded secret, make sure that your drill speed is correct. By this I mean that a slow spinning high torque drill will do much better job of getting that critical bite. The typical mechanic usually does not give second thought to the drill speed. Now, with that said, every situation has its own set of circumstances. It may be that drilling the head off may be the simplest way to resolve the dilema. If you will have plenty of screw shank sticking out after the cover has been removed, then no big deal, put some vice grips on it. Best of luck.
                                                                 Airplane Steve

 :) munkyfistfight, Have you had delivery yet... ??? Let me know.

                 

I did have delivery! Much appreciated.

I'm about to dig into this part of the process again. Work has been killing me this week. I'm buying a little torch from walmart and going to heat the crap out of it. Has anyone had any luck with thos Bolt-Out bits from Sears? The kind that fit over the head of the bolt? I think the trick will be loosening it up first and then hoping it'll come right out. Looking at the one Tiger sent me, it doesn't look like much,  but it's a big headache.