Riders Of Vision

Hy,

I'm french so sorry but my english is not very good, mostly for the mechanical words.... (when google translate for me, i put "" on the text.)

My girl friend father had a XZ550 an he tell me last week that he is ready to give me the bike if I'm able to repair it.  :D
(I'm currently working to get my bike license because I can't ride with my car driving license, So I like to repair the bike during that time and be ready to use it as an every day bike when i've got my licence)
I never see clearly the bike yet because there are many.... things.... all around in the garage but it look like this one
(http://www.motocykle.domeczek.pl/prezentacje_moto/yamaha/xz550/vision1.jpg)

He tell me the matter with the bike is "distribution chain".    
He was "stalling the engine" a first time and then the engine won't sart again. So, back to home, he "adjust the distribution chain" and start again.
A fiew time later that happen again and then the engine never start again. When he try to go to yamaha the mechanic tell him : no way i never see this engine before ! do it your self. :-\
This append many years ago maybe between 1990 and 1994 (he don't remind exactly).
I forgot to telle the bike was a second hand. And he don't remind exactly of much Km as the bike. he just tell me : not too much, i have to take a look...

So i'm looking for information and i hope help to repair this nice bike !
Of course next time I go to his home I will look for more information and details and take some pictures of the bike. (he is leaving in 150km from me and my job don't let me a lot of free time so I probably can't go there before one or two weeks)

The only engine I repair in the past is a Vespa ACMA 1955 (125cc) but the engine is much more simple ;)
(http://www.jet-martin.com/gal/art/65/image/2.jpg)

I hope my english was not too bad and my text not too long....
Thanks for your help and advises !  ;)

J-Et.

Hello J-Et.

My guess from the translation is that the "distribution chain"  is the stator, or charging system on the bike.  It is a common problem - more so for others than some.
The second thought is that it could be the coils that supply the spark to the spark plugs.  If it only runs on one cylinder, that is the most likely problem and is usually easy to fix.
The Vision is a great bike and you came to the right place to ask you questions and hopefully find your answers.  It may take a little time and some conversation back and forths but we are here to help you and wnat you to be able to enjoy your new bike.

Welcome to the Riders of Vision family!

David

Hello David
Thank your for the friendly answer !
I hope i well understand everything you said.

I think there is a misunderstand. I not mean the stator but he chain who made the valve open/close (going from the "crankshaft"  to the valve    
axis).  so the valve don't open on the right time. I'll take a look for a model of the engine, i will show you.
But I don't knew if it's really the matter, that's what Philippe (the bike owner) tell me about the bike and he is not a mechanic.

I hope you'r right. I prefer a common -easy to fix- trouble than a hard unknown mechanical trouble....
Could you tell me what to look next time I see the bike to get a right idea of the problem ?
I also can ask Philippe for more details because i can't go to Philippe's home before two weeks.

J-Et.

PS : I need to by a english dictionary to find the good technical words, google translate is not as good as i was thinking....

If you can, please include the actual French words along with the translation.  While my French is extremely old, last time I spoke French, many people on the forum were not yet alive, others are much better at it  :)

Brian

I like your Vespa :)

me too! 

I have 2 vespa and my vision.   At least ONE of them is usually running!

Both my vespa are smallframes, one 125 ET3 and one P125ETS

Any of our Canadian friends up there speak french?

David

I thind 'Lou the Pou' would be your best bet for Francais parlez.....

 :)...and French Canadians speak a bastardised form of 17th century French!!!

Bonjour J-Et...bienvenue 8)

Contact "Lucky"...he has a great CD which contains workshop and parts manuals as well as a lot of helpfull hints and tips to help you repair/maintain a Yamaha Vision/XZ550... 8)

There are two superb XZ550 owners clubs, one in Germany and one in Holland, which would be of help to you also, especially for parts. I'm sure somebody here will have the website address (es)... :-\

The Vision in North America lasted two years, 1982/1983, and have one or two differences to the rest of the world!!! However in Europe it was available as the XZ550 from 1980/1 to 1985 'ish...

Please do not worry about your English (which is good) or the length of your text...We are all here to help you to get the very best from your newly acquired ride mon ami... 8)

                 

Hy - Salut !
Thank to all ! - Merci à tous !

- Canadian French is french ? ???  It's a joke of course  ;D I've some friends in canada I don't ave think to ask them for translation...
But there are many diferences between french and canadian. For exemple "gosses" what mean in french child mean in canadian french balls...  ;D

- I also do like my Vespa ;) but I can't ride very often because in Paris this kind of very old Vespa's are very often stolen so I don't use it for job. It's on my parents home so I only ride for holidays....

- Thank's to the compliment about my english. As i can see you understand what I said, it's good for me !

- I think it's no more useful to write in english and french or use google because Philippe tell me yesterday he as the Mechanic book for the bike who is in french and english ! (that's a very good news)
So, I will find easily my words as soon as i get the book next week-end.
He should tell me soon what kind of XZ it is (81 or 85 ?....) he just need some time to find the papers of the bike... somewhere in the home....

I think i will wait to see the bike in details before i gonna ask "Lucky" or anyone for too much help. Because I actually don't know so much what to ask.... As you see, I really no sure of the mechanic trouble yet.

I forgot some thing....
I find on the internet a picture of the engine. I've colored in red the "chaine de distribution" If some one could tell me the english name...
And if it realy could be the matter or if YellowJacket is probably right when he spoke of an startor problem.
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/xz550_distrib.jpg)
I know, i said five minutes ago no more questions yet... ;D

Welcome!

The "chaine de distribution" wou are asking about is the "camshaft chain".  Actually, camshaft chains as there is one for each cylinder.

Don't worry about your English - it's most assuredly better than my French!  I used to be fairly fluent in Spanish when I was in high school and I had a year of Russian in college, but both of those were many years ago.  I barely remember any Russian and I can understand maybe 20% of any conversation I hear in Spanish.

Again, welcome to our virtual family!

H₂O

Hi J-Et,  I had a 180 cc Vespa in 1966 it was  a hoot!  It was legal to use on the freeway in Los Angeles  and performed amazingly well.

Cam chain problems on the XZ550 are extremely rare and the adjustment is automatic, (not manually adjusted.) Be sure to keep us posted on your progress.
Your English is fine , much better than my "cereal box " French.  I was born in Montreal,  but  I am of the English speaking minority. We moved west when I was very small so I really know  a lot more Spanish than French.
Where is Bernard La Jois (French the Wrench) when you need him!

Hi everybody !

I'm very happy to find this forum where every one is so friendly !! (It's not always like that...)
Tank to H2o for the translation !
Thank's Rick, what you said is a good news. In France to drive a bike from 50cc to 125cc you need the car driving license and the motorbike driving license for the uppers 125cc ones. ( and for the young -just a bit younger than me- you need a license for the 0 to 50cc)
The last time I drive the vespa a man stop his speed triple and ask me to take a ride withe the vespa (he propose me to take ride with the street !!! But i do not of course... need the licence... if only... but he was happy the drive the Vespa.)

For the week-end i will phone Philippe to get as much details and information as i can get to the bike. (helped by every thing you teach me about the engine)
My other problem is yet to find a place to repair the bike in Paris otherwise, i have to repair it in Orleans so it will be very long... But anyway i will probably not get my license before at last tree or for month... (I hope less  ;) )

Be sure i will give step by step informations about my workshop....

J-Et.

J-Et,

        A Service Manual or Lucky's CD will show you the correct timing of the camshaft sprockets and chains.

        A simple test of the chains is "Compression Test". If the cylinders have compression in specification then the cam chains are not the first thing to check.

Use a tool like this http://www.2carpros.com/dia/how_to_check_compression.htm (http://www.2carpros.com/dia/how_to_check_compression.htm)

Please write and tell us what you learn.

$0.02
;)
Coil

J-Et, reading your posts is delightful, you accent comes right through. It reminds me of my trips home to Quebec.
Ask any questions you  want , we are all here to help! ;) ;D

Hi,
Finely america like the frog accent  ;)

The bike is from the 20 07 1982. I think in english you said 07 20 1982. Philippe by the bike in 1990 an don't use it more than one or one and a half year because of the supposed camshaft trouble. On the papers the "type : 11U" and the "série : 1243" (I don't know exactly what it is in french so translate yourself  ::) )

Philippe is sure it's the camshaft chain. Me not yet... And I think he is hesitating to let me try to repair the bike because he's not sure i will be able to do it.  :-\ I understand he don't want i spend time and money and then made the engine worst than he actually is.
For being honest, I'm not sure too (never repair a 4-stroke engine) but I like to try... Wen I repair the Vespa engine it was my first mechanic job. (but a friend helped me and he can't help me now because he gonna leave in Canada soon) So I think we will have a long dialog next week-end...
I think it's possible to repair the bike for two reason. First, we have the Service Manual. Next, Help on the internet (people use to repair this engine, I mean you  ;) ).
Anyway i will do like i gonna repair the bike and i tell you next week-end what append.

Thank's Coil for the useful link. I have a technical question for the compression check.
Could I check manually ? I mean on the vespa, I can use the "kick" (not find the translation) to move the piston and check the compression. On the Bike is that possible to check like that ? Because then it will be possible to made a quick check. If i have to "restart" the bike it will be much longer (buy a new battery, check the fuse, ...) If there is some stator trouble, could I check the compression ?...
I find no information about that on the internet.
Other question if I buy a compression tester is that some specifics ones for the motor bikes or is that the same for all bikes and cars ?

J-Et.

During the lunch I found some more information on the internet.
I read this : " you need to check the compression on a warm engine otherwise the values are wrong." on all the websites i read (french and english)
So my question is how to check if the engine don't start ?
(I knew it's maybe a crazy question... but google wasn't my friend that time...)

Hello J-ET
A little history about many of the members on this site:  Most of us obtained our bikes after they had "sat outside, neglected for many years - mine sat outside and had not run for 12 years".

Many of us have never restored a motorcycle before and these were our first projects.  Mine was, at least.

The information you will get here is priceless and always friendly.  Like you said, you don't comeacross that on many website forums these days.  Oh, and your English is great.

The first thing I did when I got my Vision was to remove the spark plugs and put a few CC's of oild into the cylinders and let it sit.  There is also a small acces cover on the right side engine cover.  If you remove the small round cover - which is right by the foot pad on the brake pedal - you will see a large bolt.  You can use a large socket to turn that bolt and the cylinders will move.  Its a great way to lubricate the pistons and cylinders for a bike that has not been running for a while.  It worked for mine.

Like some of the other members said, timing issues for the Vision are quite rare.  It is possible thoughh that it may have been revved too  high (run at high RPM's) and a valve may have been damaged.  But that is not very likely.

Take Care,

David

Thank for the advise David. Be sure i will do that.
No one said anything about my idea to use this bike for every day. So I suppose it's not a bad idea. What you think ?
J-Et.

Quote from: J-Et. on December 01, 2008, 08:02:39 AM
I read this : " you need to check the compression on a warm engine otherwise the values are wrong." on all the websites i read (french and english)

This is true.  The values will be wrong. However, follow David's advice on the oil in the cylinder (not a lot) and you can get close to the true values.  The reason you want to measure when warm is that the rings, cylinders, pistons will all expand with the heat.  You will get higher readings generally when warm.

Having said that, I measured my pressures when the bike was cold, and the pressures were low but not bad.  I was checking more for pressure and lack of pressure.  I wasn't checking for an actual value. 

Brian

P.S. we adopted our cat from a friend of a friend who is French.  Our cat kept the name Zazou.  So yes, I can hear the accent when I read your posts as well.

Quote from: J-Et. on December 01, 2008, 11:57:28 AM
Thank for the advise David. Be sure i will do that.
No one said anything about my idea to use this bike for every day. So I suppose it's not a bad idea. What you think ?
J-Et.

I ride mine almost every day during the mild weather.  Pretty much all spring, summer and fall.  I avoid the winter not just because of the ice but mainly because of the salt on the roads to prevent the ice.
The Vision is a great all around bike.  I get good fuel mileage and it is relatively comfortable to ride.  Highway riding is acceptable but it really shines on the curvy back roads around where I live.

David

I commute on my bike in San Francisco.  Pretty much every day. It's not a great ride (view-wise) but the Vision handles it exceptionally well.  In the city, I get around 40 mpg, on the freeway that would be as high as 50.  If you learn to ride it well, you can swing it around almost like a dirt bike.

Brian

J-ET, There is no adjustment for the cam chain. It has an automatic tensioner. BUT if someone tried to adjust the valves' clearances by removing the cams. Then they could be "out of time". There is/was a tool to avoid having to remove the cams.  Question is , when is did run. DID it run smoothly and did the rpms rise quickly? And how much has anyone attempted to test ride it?  See the 10,000rpm on the tach. If it made it that far...it's not a cam chain issue.

J-Et, lucky has a drawing to convert an end wrench to the Vision (factory) valve adjusting tool. The drawing may even be on his CD. 
On the first occasion when I reassembled my XZ engine , I accidentally set the rear cylinder, one tooth off . I dropped the engine down in the frame , far enough to remove the rear valve cover. 
The symptom was that it ran like crap (merde?) on the rear cylinder.
If this is the problem , then Jason is right . The Vision has hyvo chains driving the cams and they won't "jump time"  Some one had to mess with them.
I have on occasion used the Vision as sole transportation , it has only let me down twice in nearly 10 years . I had to push start it to get home once and on a tow truck once. I ride hundreds of miles from home , into the Great Mojave desert, year round  and depend on this 26 year old bike not to let me down. I'd ride it every day , with out concern .

Don't worry about compression testing on a cold engine , its done all the time to determine  the future course of  repair.

I'm a bit confused by Davids description on how to turn the engine over . It sounds like he is suggesting you remove the clutch adjusting cover , but there is only the 6mm (10 mm wrench size ) clutch free play adjusting nut in there.  I remove the cover on the left front of the engine , (with the YICS emblem on it, two small screws)  and rotate the engine CCW  GENTLY. Its a 14 mm nut  and you don't want to over do it (remove the spark plugs first) If you feel any binding STOP IMMEADATLY 

To rotate the engine with the electric starter , simply jump it from a nonrunning automobile.
Keep us posted ;) :)

Hy,

Tnak's for so much advises !

Can I get more informations about the Lucky's CD ? A search on the forum show me that you'r often said "you will find this on lucky's CD" but no more... 
What dose it contain ? Specifics technical instructions ? the history of his bike rebuild ? I suppose I have to send him a MP for ask to the CD.

I will take time to read again all your technical advises for being sure to well understand everything to this week-end.
Everything you said let me think this bike could be a nice first bike ! Even if it's older than me  ;) and if i well rebuild the engine...
This week-end i gonna talk Philippe about the bike rebuilt if he's definitely agree for let me doing it, I think the first thing i will do is to buy a tool for check the compression and do it firstable to anything else.

I near forgot, i get a date for the theoretical exam of my license in a couple of weeks. If i get it i gonna begin the driving lesson. :D

Rike your translation is fine ;) can you help me to understand " the rear cylinder" and "The Vision has hyvo chains driving the cams and they won't "jump time"  Some one had to mess with them." I relay not sure to well understand...

J-Et.

Rick,
Thanks for pointing that out about the left side cover. Its been a whili - fortunately - since I had to do that.

J-et. I'm not sure about "hyvo" chains but "had to mess" is a term we frequently use to describe when someone does something that they are not sure what they are doing.  If they knew what they were doing, the correct term would have been "tried to adjust" them.  ;D

David

J-Et, The Vision has two cylinders , front (towards the front of the bike )  and rear( towards the rear of the bike)  The one nearest the petcock  (gasoline tap)  is the rear one .

A standard cam chain is much like a bicycle chain . It has the sprocket teeth coming through the chain. A Hyvo chain, (I believe it stands for high velocity)  uses a sprocket , that looks like a gear , t he chain consists of a series of plates riveted together. The chain wraps around the sprocket and the teeth do not protrude through.
I wish I had a Vision manual in French , it would be much easier to describe, even with out the proper punctuation.

Hy,
Your basic explanations help me to be sure of the deferents words, thank you  ;)

Don't spend to much time to help me yet i don't want you to lost your time for nothing if i can't repair the bike...  sory, if i can't have to mess  ;D
I will take pictures of the bike this week-end and take a look to the mechanic manual who is in french and english.

J-Et.

J-ET

After reading you first post about the problems the bike has, I really thing it is a combination of two or three problems that are common to the Vision.
1. The carbureators are dirty - very common for this bike especially if it has not been run in a long time.  The symptom is either that the bike will not start or it will run terribly.
2. The "rev limiter" circuit is bad.  The rev limiter is a function of the ignition system that prevents the motor from going above a certain RPM limit.  If the circuit malfunctions, it will make the bike act like it is running on only one cylinder.  That will make it seem like the cam chain is not working and the timing is off.
3. the carbureators are badly out of "sync".  Translation - each carb is not drawing in equal amouunts of air.

The good news is that each of the problems can be fixed quite easilly and with a little help from us over the internet.  ;D

Best Regards,

David

David
I hope you'r right !
(if "sync" mean synchronism, i've understand but thank's for the translation  :) it could be usefull...)
I'm impatient to see the bike by myself to mad my own idea about that.

If it was not clear : Every thing I said about the bike is what Philippe tell me about what append almost fifteen years ago... He never toutch the bike to that time ! That's why there is so much "bordel" (in french) around the bike and why I only can see the front wheel yet.
The only thing I can said from what i've see is the red color of the bike ;)

I tell you more after the week-end...

J-Et.

Quote from: J-Et. on December 03, 2008, 12:10:23 PM
so much "bordel" (in french) ...

...in English...brothel :o  :-[  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

               

Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention is oil in the starter.  Once again, it is a problem that is somewhat common to the bike and is caused between a poor seal between the starter nose and the engine case.  If there is oil in  the starter, the bike will not crank (the starter will not start the motor)

Regarding synchronization - it is when both carburetors draw in the same amount of air.  Sometimes it is called "balancing the carbs".  It involves adjusting the airflow through both carbs until it is relatively equal with regards to the amount of air that each cylinder needs to operate properly.

David

I'm learning useful things about the bike and the words  ;D ;)

I've read in a frech website how to "balancing the carbs" easily with only two old bottle, oil and plastic tubes.
If anyone knew this way (read if you ask me for  ::) ), i will translate it. If it could help some one...

J-Et.

J-ET,

Here is another website that we often refer to that has lots of tips and instructions how to do things.  Its owned and operated by our own ROV member "Lucky".
Its in English but pretty easy to understand and has lots of pictures.  It also has a section about balancing the carbs and instructions for making a very simple tool for doing the job.

www.xz550.com

All the best,

David

I gonna spend many times on this website, thank's for the link.
i may have no internet on the we, so see you next week for the pictures of the bike !

Hi,
A good and a bad news.
The good one it's ok, i gonna repair the bike !  :)
I hope to bring the bike to my parent's home for chrismas. (i find no place near to my home yet... and i have to clean the garage first...)
A picture of the bike (after removing many, many stuffs... and bring everything back after...)
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/1.jpg)
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/right.jpg)
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/left.jpg)
The bad news is the top of the front cylinder is open as you can see but, after a quick look, i think nosing is missing.
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/distrib.jpg)
The bike as 43000km.
I bring home the "XZ550'82 service manual" who is in French, English and German. it could be usefull  ;)

What you think about the bike ?

I also had one question, I find compression checking tool but there are tree sizes 10,12 and 14 mm. I find the kind of spark plug in the service manual but not the size... I also take a look on the internet but i find no where the size of the spark plug hole...

J-Et.

the spark plug threads are 10mm

go back and look for parts that belong to Vision .... like the gas tank ;)

The plugs are D8EA , NGK's  they are 12mm ,  C plugs are 10 mm  such as C7Hs .

Many compression test gauges come with adapters to cover all three sizes.
You need to find all the parts , the right, removable frame rail is not visible  it the pic,

It looks like some of my garages , buried  in stuff! :D :D :D ;)

All the missing parts (i think) are in a bag you can't see on the picture (back to the bike)
I just hope all the screw are in the bag... the tank gas is easy to see all the littles things....  :-\
When i gonna move the bike to my parent's home I will take picture of all the bike and parts and have a check list of all the different parts i get. To be sure noting missing.

Rike, I think most of the garage in the word are like this  ;D (I want one !  ::)) Actually there are 5 bikes on Philippe garage but only one is usable (a Kawasaki 1400 GTR) and the XZ is not the oldest...

The spark plug in the service manual are : DR8ES-L (NKG). I misunderstand or you disagree about the sizes Rike and Night V.
I will look for an other gauge with different sises adapter from 10 to 14 mm, it will be fine.  ;)

Is that a big trouble the top of front cylinder to stay open from 18 years ?

J-Et.

Quote from: J-Et. on December 09, 2008, 02:40:44 AM
Is that a big trouble the top of front cylinder to stay open from 18 years ?

J-Et.

Staying open could have caused two things.
1. Rusting of the camshaft and lifter shims or the cam chain.
      Citric acid, lemon juice, will remove rust if it is not severe. Replacing the rusted parts is easy.
2. Condensation of water into the crankcase.
     Changing the oil will remove water that condensed, drain it before you crank the engine over.

You must find the pipe that is missing from the frame on the right side of the engine.

$0.02
;)
Coil

I suppose so for the rust. Hope there is not too much.... :-[ But i don't think to the condensation. Thank's
Could you explain what are "lifter shims" ? I can't find a correct translation...
J-Et.

The 'lifter shims' are the valve clearance adjuster shims and are located under the cam lobes. Getting those out could be a problem if they are rusted into the buckets they sit in.
I went back to the photos and there doesn't look like much rust in there so you may be ok. Just hope the valves were all closed or there could be rust in the cylinders.

Quote from: J-Et. on December 09, 2008, 02:40:44 AM

The spark plug in the service manual are : DR8ES-L (NKG). I misunderstand or you disagree about the sizes Rike and Night V.

Rick is correct. 12mm

(I measured the top of plug... less threads / tapered )

Walt_M : I hope too...

I just buy a "compressiomètre". I find one with adapters for 10, 12 and 14mm. (could be used for other engines...  ;))
I also need to buy engine oil and a battery.
I tell you more next time i go to Orléans. But first to all, had to clean the open cylinder.... (and the all bike)

J-Et.

Well, you have your work cut out for you but I have seen worse....much worse.

The good news is that we are here to help.  :-)

David

Hy,

Some news...

The bike is now on my father garage (after a big cleaning -emptying- of this one)   :)

For have a better look of the bike :
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/g.jpg) (http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/r.jpg)
The missing parts :
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/pieces.jpg)

I have to said that the both cylinder are not close. Bur the valves were all closed. There is no rust on the camshaft.
The engine is easy to turn. But i can't check the compressions because i can't remove the spark-plugs. I need a tool long enough to turn upper the camshaft.
The front wheel can't turn but i think it's because of the breaks. The rear wheel is very easy to turn.

The only thing missing (i think) is one of the 8 little cap on the picture :
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/bouchon.jpg)
I hope i will find one otherwise i have to made one myself.

I don't knew if there is something missing on the rear cylinder.
You can see on the picture on the rear of the cylinder there is noting in face of the camshaft chain idler. On the front cylinder there is something on this area (you can see on the right top corner of the picture)
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/question.jpg)

So i will try next time to check the compressions and to put a new battery to see if the ignition system is working. Is there something special to do before doing this ?

A last question how did i knew if the camshaft chain is tend enough ? She look not very tense but i never work on that kind of engine so i don't knew how it should be...

Thank's for help.

J-Et.

PS : I began the bike driving lesson...

Quote from: J-Et. on December 22, 2008, 05:53:44 AM

I don't knew if there is something missing on the rear cylinder.
You can see on the picture on the rear of the cylinder there is noting in face of the camshaft chain idler. On the front cylinder there is something on this area (you can see on the right top corner of the picture)
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/question.jpg)

no, it is not missing .... only one cam chain tensioner on each cylinder

number 14 below

(http://parts.yamaha-motor.com/partimage.gifx?d=23029,2,0)

You must find the rubber caps. they help maintain oil pressure for the cam shaft bearings.
The cam chain has an automatic adjuster , UNLESS the adjuster blade is damaged, it should not be a problem. You will need  a spark plug wrench for a 12 mm plug . A 18mm one should do it , you may also need an extension, so that you can use a ratchet wrench to turn the plug.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/NOS-YAMAHA-XT350-TT350-XZ550-FZ600-SRX250-CYLINDER-PLUG_W0QQitemZ190264812039QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item190264812039&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1215|66%3A4|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

One of these, correct?

Brian

Hy,

NV :
I see this schema in my service manual. I may bad explain my question. On the corner of the picture it is not the tensor but "something" in the rear side of the front cylinder) I don't see it on the schema. So what is it ? why only on the front cylinder ???
It's probably not a matter but i like to understand... One possible explanation is that is it just a cap and the rear cylinder don't need it because it "look to the ground" then the dirty can't go in .(i don't knew how to explain what i mean)
Tell me if you want more pictures.

Brian :
Thank's for the link, It look fine. I have to seach on Ebay CA and US to find more useful things ;)

Rike :
Thank's for the explanations. So what i suppose was approximately right. I don't understand what you mean :
"UNLESS the adjuster blade is damaged, it should not be a problem" My english is to bad sorry i'm not sure of the meaning....

A last question, is that possible to find only the top cylinder joint, because the front cylinder joint is broken. I only find the full engin joint but i don't need all the joint yet.

J-Et.

I forgot one thing.
On the schema there are two tings for drive the camshaft chain (24 & 25) but on the bike there is only on on the top of the chain, nothing under....
It's maybe a difference between the 82 & 83 model ?
J-Et.

Quote from: J-Et. on December 23, 2008, 03:00:58 AM

NV :
I see this schema in my service manual. I may bad explain my question. On the corner of the picture it is not the tensor but "something" in the rear side of the front cylinder) I don't see it on the schema. So what is it ? why only on the front cylinder ???
It's probably not a matter but i like to understand... One possible explanation is that is it just a cap and the rear cylinder don't need it because it "look to the ground" then the dirty can't go in .(i don't knew how to explain what i mean)
Tell me if you want more pictures.

I understand... yes there is a "cap" on the rear of the front cylinder and no cap on the rear of the rear cylinder

Brian :
Thank's for the link, It look fine. I have to seach on Ebay CA and US to find more useful things ;)

I was wondering what "cylinder plug" that was for... I know Vadasz1 posted it up, ... but good recognition Brian

hope Rick can answer the other questions

J-et  I'll get my parts book out and see it I can understand what parts you are referring to.  I'll get back to you tomorrow.

Hy,

Good job NV my question was not easy to understand  ;D

Don't spend time on my last question. I see on the service manual a picture of the chain who is exactly the same as the one i made of the chain last week-end. So I suppose everything ok.
I will take a look on the bike to better understand  ??? (I get back to Orleans for the next week-end)

J-Et.

Merry Christmas, J-Et

;)
Coil

Merry christmas to all !

Some news :

I change the oil and the oil filter. The oil became something close to shewing-gum... A bit to old...
When I change the oil filter I got a bad surprise. One of the screw came with the thread... So i spend the all Saturday to search an "hélicoil" to repair it. I found nothing a Saturday between Christmas and the new year...
Anyway i finally try a new screw a bit longer. There is still some thread in the end of the hole so i can put a screw. I wil anyway find something for made a real repair but i need to find it...

I clean the air box (can't find a new air filter, the yamaha shop is close and the open ones don't had it).
I also find the little oil plug missing and there is no rust in the gaz tank.

I put a new battery and check the electrics parts. Everything look working except the right flashing (is that the word ??) the front one light is dead and it don't turn on/off but i suppose it's because of the dead light.
The dead point light don't turn on ? I don't knew why. and the oil light don't turn off but it's probably ok because of the missing screw i lost some oil when i check the compression....
The spark plug look working but i got no tester so i don't knew if the light is powerful enough.
I'm loking for gaz tubes ("durites") because the olds ones break like glass.

I try to check the compressions. The rear cylinder is 80 and the front one 70 psi on the manual they are supposed to be 140 when the engine is warm.
I'm not afraid because it's not the good way to check and you tell me they will be low. I think 10psi is not to much difference ? it suppose to be no more than 10psi on a warm engine. do you think it is to much when the engine is cold ?

I got a last question about the camshaft chain before i close the engine an try to start. I take a picture but my girl friend give the camera to his sister yesterday without tell it to me... I gonna show you this as soon as possible....
I try to explain with simple words but i'm sure NV will understand  ;)

So the front cylinder chain look less tense as the rear one. there is one point on the engine turn when the chain is really not tense between the too  gears on the top of the cylinder, it look like the chain will go up to the rear gear but it not append... I can't see it on the rear cylinder.
So should I screw off this two gear an put them back looking to the manual for the exact position ?
If i do it how to screw them off ? I see i have to lock the camshaft with a 22 tool ("clé de 22" in French) but they look pretty hard to remove and i suppose they are screw to the right because the engine is moving to the left ?
Is there a risk to big mistake if i do this ? Is that useful to do this ?
I'm working back on the bike on next week-end. I'm waiting for advise and try to get the picture as soon as possible.

For the pleasure one more picture of the bike i take with my phone yesterday :
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/photo.jpg)
Really look nice  :)
J-Et.

Waiting for the picture i made yesterday, i found this on the picture from last week (it's not as easy to see as on my last pictures) :
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/distrib2.jpg)
That append only when i am close to the PMH.  ???
If i apply the chain to the two gears, i can put my little finger between the driver and the chain ! But if i count the chain blocs between the gears they are 6 in both cylinder...
What the experts think about it ?  ;)
J-Et.

that does not look right to me... but I didn't look to close when I had the valve covers off when I adjusted the valves...

I hope Rick or others can advise you

I have one in the shed with the valve covers off, I'll have to pull the  XL350 out and a customers CB750 engine , which is on a cart , out of the shed , but I may be able to get a picture, when I do. Wish me luck ( Bon Chance)

That don't look right to me too.... :-\ because it's not the same on the both cylinder...
Good luck Rike, i support you  ;) ! Hope you give me a good news  ::)
Did you think it could be just a problem of the tensor ?
I read on the manual there is a tool to check the tense of the chain ? do you ever see that kind of tool ?

I also think so long as the cover are off, i gonna check the valves game ("jeux au soupapes", the space between the valve and the cam). But i need to by a new tool for check the space because mine is too big.

I've got the picture :
(http://dixsign.free.fr/forums/xz550/chaine.jpg)

not good... don't put it back together and start it.

looks like it is off a tooth

do you have a Haynes manual?

Hy, Happy new year !
I don't find the meaning of "Haynes".
I got a "service manual". I hope to find everything on it.
I will work on this trouble this week-end....
If you got any idea or advises...

Haynes is the brand name of a publisher of service manuals. If you have the Yamaha factory service manual you will be ok except for there may be an error in the valve clearance chart. Check the technical section in this site for the correct chart.
From the look of the photo, there is something wrong with your cam chain tensioner. Your's has too much slack, in addition to possibly being off time by a tooth.

That explain why it's not on my dictionary  ;)
I will check that point on Saturday because the book is with the bike in Orléans.
I will also take off the tensioner to see if it's wrong, used or anything else... I'll probably gonna take a picture of it to get your opinion about it.
I hope to find in the book (and be able to) how to put the chain on the right position.
Thank's again for your help !
J-Et.

I check the chain tensors They look band new.
Is that ok that the thing who the tensor push is not realy used but you can see the point where the tenser push (maybe 1mm used). I try to get a picture but it was unpossible with my camera.
I check that point it's the same in both cylinder.
I put back the camchain on the right position on the front cylinder it look better now. (like the rear cylinder)
I try to start and the camchain look working good yet.

So i close the engine put the airbox, the gaz tank, a gaz filter.... in one word everything... And some gaz in the tank. The only thing missing is the coolling liquid.
I know i will remove every thing next week because the valve clearance is a little to low on the 4 intake valves, close to 0.07mm instade of 0.11mm. (but yamaha is close this week so i can't get adjusting pad and i need to get the special tool)

I try to start the engine on our ago but no way... the gaz don't go to the carbs... Is that a pump or something for the first start like in my car or the Vespa ? I don't find it...
What do you advise ?
Should i check something in the carbs ?

Vs' have vacume operated fuel pumps.

When starting a V with empty carbs, begin with 6+ liters of gasoline in the fuel tank,  put the fuel valve in the "Prime" position,  give each carb float bowl light tap to unstick the float, and wait 2 minutes for the fuel/float bowls to fill. 

To check for fuel flow, do as suggested above, then open each float bowl drain screw and look for fuel flow out of the float bowl drain.  Close the drain screws after fuel flow has been established.

I finally was able to get into the back of the shed. Your cam chain was definitely too loose. I cant say it its out of time , the picture isn't clear enough. Basically the intake and exhaust cam lobes are pointing at each other at about a 45 degree angle on the front cylinder and pointing away from each other on the rear cylinder . If they are you can dial them in with the timing marks. Be certain that the cam chain tension er is working properly.  Bon Chance! ;)

No computer yesterday afternoon, I just read your answer...
Rike Thank's a lot for have checked on your bike ! If it's not too much asking could you see on your bike about my previous question about the tensioner impact for being sure it's fine ? If you disagree i will understand...
QBS thank's for the suggest.

So as I said, i modify the tense of the front cylinder Saturday (using the maual) it look as you said Rick. And both cylinder chain look same tense. I try to start to check the chain don't move. It look ok.
So i close the top of cylinder, and try to start. Impossible...

So i take of the gaz filter i add on the gaz-line and put 5 litter of gaz on the tank Sunday morning and then ... it not start but near... make some sound like " Pump pump pump" (not easy to descibe  :P)
After that i take off the gaz tank and take a look to the carbs. the rear one look good and the front one look a bit dirty. I clean them as i can (helped by a compressor). I remove the float bowl drain screw (i suppose it's that one) the rear one look clean but the front one is dirty. I clean what i can on both carbs and the carbs look working much better.
So I put the gaz tank and air box and that time it still try to start but more easily... except once it start for a fiew seconds (maybe 3....). I can't describe how much dirty (i don't know the word for the darkness of the exhaust) who get on the wall, my dad will like the new color of the wall  ::)
After a fiew more try but no start (sound close to), i stop to try starting.

Take everything off (gaz tank, ...) re-open the top of the cylinder and check the oil is right coming on it. (as said on the manual) that point is very fine.
Because of the darkness, the cold (and a stupid scratch of my right hand, my poor fingers) i don't check if the camchain is still good, i do that next time.

I can said that the rear cylinder only started because the exhaust is warm and the front exhaust is cold. I checked the compression before i remove the gaz tank. The rear one (quite warm) look fine, 120 close to the manual, the front one (cold) is still around 80.

Do you think it could still be a trouble on the front cylinder ? only a carb trouble ?
I try to get off the carbs  to clean them but i don't find the right way... i disconnect the pipes and YICS, screw off the admission coil but they won't leave the bike... Can i clean them inside without take them off ?
Any advises about this front cylinder no-fire (or miss-fire) ? sorry to not have checked if the front cylinder camchain is still right it will not help for diagnostic....

J-Et.

I forgot to said that after so much try of starting the bike, the batterie is off (good enough for the lights but no more for start, the charging machine tell me it's off). I don't knew if it's normal or not. I suppose it is normal but you'r more experienced than me about that...

I was realy not well awake this morning...
A last question about the ignition valve clearance. Do you think i have to update it ? (is suppose i have to) but did i need the special tool or can i use something else ? Do you think i can find it on a yamaha shop ? (i suppose no)
I suppose it is not the cause of the front miss-fire because it's near the same values on the both cylinder...

I hate to tell you this and you do not want to hear it but you must remove and disassemble your carbs and clean them. I know it is not easy but you have to do it. And, as most people find out the hard way, clean enough is not good enough. They must have all of the passages thoroughly clean. A little bit of dirt goes a long way toward making the bike start and run poorly.
And one more thing, because it is the front cylinder not firing, make sure you disconnect the rev limiter wire at the ignition box. I believe it is the yellow/black, check your manual. The rev limiter can fail and it cuts off ignition to the front cylinder.
Good luck.

Hy walt

I suppose i don't have the choice... I gonna remove the carbs next time...
(when i see how much peoples get carbs trouble on the forum after only 4 years not running, with the 18 years i was sure to get carb troubles...)
If i want use the bike for every day i prefer do the best i can now and don't get in trouble later... So i will explore the forum for more information about how to remove them...

I disconnect anything. I will see that point too. I read there is a rev limiter but i don't think it can fail... I was thinking the rev limiter was on the rear cylinder ? my memory maybe wrong but i think there is the yellow/black too....
There is maybe something wrong on the electrical system because the neutral light don't turn on.
You made me think to an other question. There is a black cable on the ignition box but ... nothing to connect with ?? i don't find it on the manual...

J-Et.

 :) J-Et, you have to remove the carb's from the left (gauche) side of the Vision...

Start by removing the air filter box...then bend the metal tabs on the frame that hold the wire harness to it, and move the harness out a wee bit.
Once you have everything disconnected, lift the carbs up and forward a little...then tilt the carbs to the left and get the back carb to exit the frame first...Voila!!!

I and a few others have disconnected the rev limiter wire from the back of the gauge cluster... ;)

                   

J-Et, you will find it easier if you separate  the fuel pump from the carbs , before you try to remove them from the frame. Just remove the  8mm nuts on the mounting bracket , the hoses and lift it up. It makes a smaller package  to tip over and remove through the left side of the frame. You must go through the carbs , as the Xz550 is very fussy about clean carbs.

Hy, Thank's for the method. it will help !
I'm a bit scared to broke the black thing between the carbs and the cylinder when i take off the carbs. Could you tell me the name in english for searching more information about that ?
I don't understand "gauge cluster" the translation i get made non-sens... ???
I try to contact a yamaha dealer today for the valve adjusting materials.
I hope after that and the carb cleaning the both cylinder will start as brand new... ;)

Black thing between carburetor & cylinder = intake boot (or intake manifold).

Gauge cluster = speedometer, tachometer, temperature gauge and the housing surrounding it all.

The valve shim tool is not made any longer.  Even the aftermarket company stopped making it.  I am currently looking into getting some machined.

H₂O

I better understand now...
Thank's for the translation, i find more informations on the archives.
The Yamaha shop was closed. For the valve shim tool i find on lucky's site how to rebuid one (http://www.xz550.com/art_files/ValveShimTool.jpeg). (i have to convert the inch to mm, but i think one size is missing on the side view...)
I will try next week-end if i could use something else otherwise i will build one...
J-Et.

Quote from: J-Et. on January 05, 2009, 08:53:37 AM
There is a black cable on the ignition box but ... nothing to connect with ?? i don't find it on the manual...

J-Et.

J-ET, On the Riders of Vision "Home" page open the "Technical" page.

Open the "Wiring Diagram" The ignition box is labeled "TCI Unit" The black/white wire goes to the "Side Stand Relay
The engine will run if this wire is connected to the Battery -. The engine will start with no safety

The neutral light switch connects to the battery - through the engine.
The Oil light switch connects to the battery -.

Both switches are on the left side of the engine case near the shift lever shaft.

Hope this helps,
;)
Coil

Coil, yes, this will may help !

Do you mean if the side stand is open the engine will not start ??? if i right understand, i got no chance to start last week, the side stand was down...  :o
As the same if the neutral light is of it will no start ?... ok i have to learn electricity (cleaning the crabs will be easier for me  ???)....

I suppose the Y/B wire going from the TCI to the tachometer is the one i have to disconnect (the famous rev limiter).
What is the "Pick up" (that is what connect the black TCI cable on your diagram) ?

J-Et.

Quote from: J-Et. on January 07, 2009, 06:41:56 AM
Do you mean if the side stand is open the engine will not start ??? if i right understand, i got no chance to start last week, the side stand was down...  :o
As the same if the neutral light is of it will no start ?... ok i have to learn electricity (cleaning the crabs will be easier for me  ???)....

Yes, having the kick stand down will keep the engine from starting.  I believe you can start if it is in gear and the clutch is pulled in, but I haven't tried that in a while.  And I have to admit, the image of cleaning crabs brought to mind the last scenes of "Finding Nemo"... :-)

Brian

Good news : The engine start yesterday !  :D

I have :
- Take off the carbs (thank's for the way to do it, it's much easier), Open the carbs : the font one was a bit dirty the rear one look clean.
- I clean the both of them i knew there is CLEAN and clean. They are clean... I found some one who is cleaning with ultrasound, i will may give him the carbs for a deep CLEAN... The gaz pump look like working.
- Clean the electric connections on the all bike.
- Go to Yamaha ask a mechanic for the valve clearance, he tell me my values are fine, and he has the special tool, if the engine not working fine he will give it to me for doing that job. He explain me how to clean the cooling system (the liquid is now like oil, hard to clean.) Only the oldest mechanic knew this bike the other once tell me "XZ, do you mean XS ?"...
- Put back the carbs, close the engine, ...
- Clean the cooling system
- Try to start... like last weekend : "pump pump pump" but no start...
- Disconnect the rev-limiter
- Try to start... It Start !

The both exhaust are warm so I suppose the both cylinder works. (do you have a way for being 100% sure the engine is fine ? i mean the font cylinder camshaft chain will not move again)

The trouble is that the "ralenti" (low rpm of the engine) is close to 2000rpm with the "starter"(i don't knew if it is the same word). When i take the starter off the engine stop. If i just half cut the starter the engine speed go to 1600rpm, under it will stop.
I suppose i have to CLEAN the carbs, don't you ? Is there an other issue to check first because the engine start very easily.
The engine go very fast in hy rpm if i accelerate, look like it work fine.

I also have to made a deep cleaning of the radiator and to check the bypass of the cooling system because the engine get very warm after only 10 minutes, and the radiator is still cold. (but the fan work)

I also need new joints for the top of the engine (the olds one are broken) because i am lousing (a lot of) oil...

The neutral light is still not working, i don't find the reason of this trouble (the electricity is not my friend  :P). But if you use the clutch you can start. (you can ear a little "click" when it is ok for start)

Thank's again for all your usefull advisses !  ;)

J-Et.

Your one step closer MON AMI ! ! !

You changed engine coolant.  Good.  Did you bleed all the air out of the cooling system?  If not, the engine will overheat.  See the Haynes manual for instuctions.

The engine runs.  Good. Your cam timing must be right.

Since you have access to ultrasound, save your time and energy and don't try and clean the carbs in the usual Dip manner.  Have the carbs cleaned with ultrasound.  Ultrasound is very good.  Be very very careful when removing the the float bowl floats.  The float bowl pedistals are very easy to break if you are inexperianced.

Thank's for the advise, i will take care about that. The ultrasound cleaner i was looking for no more exist... i have to find an other one.

For the cooling system, I may have badly bleed the air out. but anyway, the radiator is not deep cleen i think, if i'm not able to make a deep clean myself next time, i will ask the yamaha mechanic for that.

I'm thinking to bring the bike to yamaha for a check of the engine before spending time and money to the rest of the bike (dampers, brakes, tyres, ...). I'm not a mechanic and i got no experience so they may see some trouble i don't. Did you think it's not useful and i'm too much anxious ?

J-Et.

Hy, bad news... :-\
As said, i bring the bike to tree mechanic today. they all agree : there is something wrong on the engine. (i mean inside)
I d'ont get the words to descibe what they tell me, i will maybe search tomorrow... anyway i will not be abble to repair te engine myself or without help. I will look for that during the next fiew days...
I suppose my project to ride this bike in a fiew month is finished...
Thank's again for all your help an advises. I hope i will repair the engine one day even if it is in a fiew years...
J-Et.

Hy every body ! sorry for the long silence... :-\
Two good news today !  :)

The first one, I got my driving license and a bike (Bandit 650N abs from 2006) since yesterday !

The second one, i may find a way to repair the XZ :
The noise i've heard, it's maybe because the cam chain is moving each time i stop the engine. if i sync the cam, it start fine again...
An old mechanic explain me it's because the tensor are damaged on the back as i previously said. If it's as i think, he knew how to repair.... so next time i've got enough time i have to check if only the rear of the tensor are used. if it's like that, it will be not too hard to repair...
So i hop to be able to look at that between now an June...

I'll tell you what append !

I'm glad to hear that your on two wheels !  Good luck with you XZ550 repair efforts.
I have several cam chain tensoners. you can have ea set for the shipping . The package would be quite small and not very expensive to ship. Let me know if you want them.

Hy, nice to read you again ;)
What part of the tensionner do you talk about ? (maybe i don't knew the right word)
Did you talk of the metalic stuf whith push the tensionner or of the black stuf inside the engine who is pushing the chain ?
The damaged stuf in my case is the black stuf. so the metalic tendionner is too short. The solution is to modify the metallic stuf to made a longer one. (he made this many years ago on a suzuli bike who get the specific same trouble)
But this is possible only if the tensionner is not used but just damaged in one specific way where the metalic tensionner is pussing on it. (sorry i no able to properly explain in english....)
That's why i have to check if it's exacly the same trouble and take picture for the mechanic to be sure it's possible to repair so easely.
I try to go to my parents home as soon as possible to check that point !

I'm referring to the black skids that guide the chain, not the tension device. I have that too, though.

Fine, i tell you if i need your tensor.
Thank's

Hy,
Some more news.
I open the top of the front cylinder this WE and show pictures and the little tensioner to a mechanic last Saturday....
The (black) tensor maybe fine (a bit used but not fair, to be 100%sur, he need to remove the chain so it's only a "probably fine"), the cam-chain is over. so next time i've got a few days free, i vill change the both cylinder cam-chain.
The mechanic tell me i have to remove the cam-tree to change the chain. so i vill get more infos about that...
Is that hard ? did i need specific tools ? a dynamométric tool maybe ?
Thank's for advises...
J-Et.

I'm surprised , cam chains in the Vision are usually bullet proof. You will need to remove both outer covers to change both cam chains. I'm not familiar with the terms "camtree"  and "dynamometrc" tool.
Do you have a service manual ? Either factory of Haynes? I assume there available in French. I believe the Canadian ones are Bi-lingual.
Its going be much easier ,if you remove the engine from the frame and put it on a bench.

I don't know about the 'camtree' but dynamometric is probably a torque wrench and, yes he will need one.

ok, my internet dictionary is realy bad ;) i will check on a classic one.
"camtree" is in fact "cam shaft". for the other word, Walt_M you'r right. i have to find a torque wrench.
I have a service manual but i forgot it in my father home... ::)
The mechanic tell me i don't need to remove the engine, just need to remove the covers and the cam shaft.
But i'm surprise too of the cam-chain to be used because i read on the forum the chain is like unbreakable... for memory, the bike is around 40000km ~24855 miles
To tense the chain, i need a 10cm tensioner but the tensioner is usually no more than 5cm that's why for the mechanic the chain is over. he tell me the tensor could be used for tree cam chain but to be sure they'r fine he need to remove the chain...
do you think it could be an other trouble ? i don't really got a lot of money to spend on the bike so i will be sure of what i do....
thank's again for your help.

Hy,
Somes news and more questions ;)
I find the camchain. I will change them this summer (I hope then the engine will work fine)
If i'm lucky and the engine work, i will work as much as possible on the bike this summer so i'm asking you for some more details...
Do you knew where i can find a new break system (i mean the hose). A mechanic tell me to put "Aviation hose" then i never need to change them (what do you think about ?)
Is that possible to rebuild the master cylinder and caliper ? (did I need specifics joints or anything special)
Oh, i forgot did i need to change the coolant system hose ??
Thank's
J-Et.