Hot Cranking Problems

[jim_bowie]

I've got an '82 that won't crank when it's already hot.  This means no grocery store runs unless I plan to be inside for at least 50 minutes or so.  I had it in the shop and got the stator replaced.  The assumption was that the battery wasn't being charged, so riding it wore down the voltage to sub-cranking levels - it would turn the starter over, but the voltage was too low to get adequate spark.  Then natural battery rebound would get the voltage back up to an adequate level (that was the theory anyway).  The shop guys would charge the battery up and have no problems, but after a few days of crank, ride, and repeat, the problem would come back.  

So they replaced the stator and it worked great for a few days but is now back to its old ways.  I checked the battery voltage last night and got 12V dead and 14+V idling at 1200 rpm.  I drove around til the temp gauge was just shy of vertical, and it still showed 14+V at idle.  I turned it off and tried to recrank after about a minute, and the starter would turn over but sounded maybe just a little sluggish.  I waited 50 minutes and it cranked like a champ.  

Anyone have this problem before, or have any ideas?

[Tiger]

 :) I would be looking at your starter motor...it may, at the very least, be in need of a clean out/clean up and new brushes  :-\

                          8).......TIGER....... 8)

[YellowJacket!]

Check your fuse block too.  If you are still using the original fuse block and its all old and corroded, you are proably not getting enough juice to the starter.
May want to check your ground connection as well as the connection at the starter.

Just some ideas.

David

[Lucky]

plugged gas tank vent in the cap...

[YellowJacket!]

plugged gas tank vent in the cap...

Yep, I'll bet a dollar on that.

Next time it happens, open up the gas cap for a second to let some air in and then close it.  Try to start the bike.  If it starts right up, your gas cap vent is plugged.

David

[Lucky]

well, after you put the cap back on, put the bike on the side stand & put the petcock on prime, for 60 seconds, then try to restart it...  the carbs need to refill...

[jim_bowie]

That sounds almost too good to be true!  I just wish it wasn't dark and raining so I could test it out immediately - I'm going to have all night for hope to build up and potentially be dashed in the morning.  Thanks for the tip though - that definitely would make sense.

[Night Vision]

..... The shop guys would charge the battery up and have no problems, but after a few days of crank, ride, and repeat, the problem would come back. 

So they replaced the stator and it worked great for a few days but is now back to its old ways.  I checked the battery voltage last night and got 12V dead and 14+V idling at 1200 rpm.  I drove around til the temp gauge was just shy of vertical, and it still showed 14+V at idle.  I turned it off and tried to recrank after about a minute, and the starter would turn over but sounded maybe just a little sluggish.  I waited 50 minutes and it cranked like a champ. 

Anyone have this problem before, or have any ideas?

I don't think your gas cap is your problem.... sounds more like a bum battery... even a battery with a dead cell will read 12v.
a resting battery should read around 12.6v... good news is sounds like your charging system is good



go to sleep and dream about a wallymart $35 battery or have someone load test it.

[Kid Jedi]

the starter is powered through a solenoid, not the fuseblock. plugged vent cap would happen wile the engine is under load, not when parked.

if your starter was full of oil  it would take about 50 min for all of the oil to drain from the brush end so it would start again. park her on center stand for a wile, if she dosn't start then you know the problem :(


I bet your starter is full.

[jim_bowie]

Is there a way to test the oil-soakedness of the starter without pulling it off?  I read somebody else's suggestion to drill a hole in the bottom to let oil drain - is that a good idea?  And how much oil actually gets in the thing when it happens - will it be enough to start effecting my total oil level if I drain it?  Thanks for the help!

[Tiger]

 :) Nope...you have to remove it completely. Its only two M6 bolts and the power lead nut to remove...Oh, drain the engine oil first!!! Its a good time to do an oil/filter change anyway ;)

Once removed, you need to remove the two long bolts that hold the three parts of the starter together. Try and just remove the power lead end cap...carefull it may contain oil...If its got oil in, you will need to strip it down and wash it out with a solvent. I would also suggest that you buy a pair of new brushes as well as the oil seal. If there is no oil, new brushes will still be needed.

...OR

Take it to a starter rebuild shop. They can do the seal and brushes as well as machine the commutator nice and smooth...it should then, in theory, last another 27 years :o ::) ;D :D :D :D :D :D... ;)

                        8).......TIGER....... 8)

[Night Vision]

Is there a way to test the oil-soakedness of the starter without pulling it off?  I read somebody else's suggestion to drill a hole in the bottom to let oil drain - is that a good idea?  And how much oil actually gets in the thing when it happens - will it be enough to start effecting my total oil level if I drain it?  Thanks for the help!

yes...

put the bike in neutral, take some jumper cables and a known to be good 12v battery (like the one in yer car)
hook the battery positive to the connector on the end of your starter and ground the negative to the engine case....

the starter should spin when you touch the ground wire to the case...

starters that are "full of oil" are more like "full of sludge" it's not likely they will drain back out in 50 minutes..



to disprove my theory that its a bad battery, take your leads off the vision battery and connect them by jumper wires to a car battery  ... just make sure the car IS NOT running.

two easy tests to check your starter and check your battey

[jim_bowie]

Checked the plugged tank vent theory - no such luck, sadly.  I'll pull the car up close tomorrow and test out the battery idea.  Does it make sense that a bad battery would recover sufficiently to crank after an hour of rest? 

[Re-Vision]

Its a possibility, batteries do recover somewhat after the load (starting) is taken off of them.  Using a known good battery will at least eliminate it from whatever is causing your problem

[Kid Jedi]

If your starter was full of oil  it would take about 50 min for all of the oil to drain from the brush end so it would start again. park her on center stand for a wile, if she dosn't start then you know the problem :(


I bet your starter is full.

your started is damaged. it must be removed and serviced for continued reliable operation

[jim_bowie]

I charged the battery overnight and noticed the liquid levels were down for about 4/6 cells, so I filled them up with distilled water.  She just cranked quite peppily and got me back to work fine - if things hold true to form, i'll start having problems again after 4-6 days of riding.  If so, I'll tear into the starter.  But hopefully it was just the depleted electrolytes in the battery?!?!

[Brian Moffet]

At this point I would suspect battery.  I also recommend an AGM battery if possible, they make my life a whole lot easier.  My bike starts within a second every morning when I ride it to work.  Same on the way home.

Brian (who might actually cross the 45,000 mile boundary this year...)

[YellowJacket!]

The cells running low on electrolyte seemed to be a chronic problem on the cheap batteries I bought at Advanced Autoparts.  My WallyWorld (WalMart) battery has survived all year and is still at the line for each cell.  For all I spent on Advanced AP batteries, I could have bought a very good gell bat. 

David

[jim_bowie]

Think I may have figured it out - everything was completely dead when I got ready to leave work Friday, so I checked the fuses and the main 30A fuse had a clip that was loose on one side and pretty corroded (and the plastic appeared to have melted under the clip).  I walked to Auto Zone and got some in-line blade-style fuse holders and replaced all four fuses with those, and she's been cranking well since then with no apparent loss of charge.  So in my theory, the loose, corroded clip created a partial connection that was generating a lot of heat (hence the melted plastic) instead of passing full amperage from the stator to the battery.  But there was still enough current flowing to charge the battery to some extent (hence the battery never completely dying).  I guess I'll find out in another week or so if this one sticks.  Hope so!

[QBS]

There's a ton of strange speculation going on in this thread.  Can't even begin to follow the various proposed explanations.