Ok I just pulled my bike out of the basement, havn't run it in 2 years, battery was completely dead, so I hooked a booster pack up, hit the starter button and the starter just free wheels, doesn't turn the motor over. I pulled the starter out and checked the gear inside the motor, it looks alright - gears arn't broken off. The gear it freewheels with my finger one way and the other way it binds up. Is my starter running backwards or is something broken on my starter clutch??? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, BOB
most likley the starter clutch rollers are just gummed up from sitting so long.
charge/replace the battery & bump start the bike. put 1/4 cup mineral spirits or 'GM crankcase cleaner' in the oil fill & run the bike for 5-10 min at low but varing rpms (stay under 4k).
drain the oil & change the filter use a good grade of dino oil, it's probable that your clutch plates are stuck together too, so you may need to gently rock it forward & back letting the clutch in & out before you bump start it.
--Lucky
if you can turn the gear (the one that the starter motor turns) one way and it freewheels, and the other way "binds up"... that's what it's supposed to do.. the rollers/cams are engaging the starter clutch onto the crank....
you may want to take a closer look at the starter. have you ever replaced the nose seal or brushes?
pull it out, see if you can turn the end gear.... it will be hard to turn but should not bind... and/or put it in a vice and hook a known to be good 12V battery directly to it. black wire to the mounting tab / red wire to the post... it'll spark a little when you power it up... but should sound like a power drill on steroids
my starter clutch will freewheel once in a while if it's been really cold out & it doesn't want to start... i consider the occasional freewheel normal for my bike.
--Lucky
Never actually had a starter freewheel with my bike in 24 yrs of ownership. Also haven't done my starter clutch fix but, as I have under 14K miles it probably isn't needed, yet.
that's why i said normal for my bike.. i've done the starter clutch fix, & run a full synthetic oil.. probably roller springs are a bit weak as well. i know the rollers aren't flat spotted. i replaced the rollers with new ones but they were out of the spring & cap kits.
I took the starter out and it works great I just had it rebuilt last year, but never ran the bike. (I put positive to terminal and negative to frame of starter). The starter rotates the same way the gear free wheels. I thought maybe it might be running backwards but I don't see how that is possible. I'm gonna try the gm crankcleaner on it and see what happens.
Perchance the starter clutch cams are frozen?
Well I tried running the cleaner through and no luck, starter still free wheels. So I guess I'm gonna have to rip it apart and see whats going on. Any pointers?
point youself in this direction>>>>
>>>> http://ridersofvision.net/forum/xzindex.php?topic=6525.msg56535#msg56535
>>>> http://ridersofvision.net/forum/xzindex.php?topic=6527.msg56551#msg56551
did you run thebike with the cleaner in it? (you'd have to bump start it of course..)
Yep I ran it for 5-10 min low rpm. Still same problem, think I'll pull the side cover off tomorrow see whats what.
you said you had the starter rebuilt. did it start the bike afterwards? if you didnt start it after haveing it rebuilt then who ever rebuilt the stater could of wired it wrong. id have to go check to see what direction that the starter is supposed to turn. ill go find me one and check it out.
ok used a starter with a dead spot but it turns counter clockwise if your looking at the gear.
Well that is likely my problem, because when I tested it, looking at the gear it would run clockwise, the way the geari inside the motor free wheeled, the other way it would catch. The only thing that can be wired backwards is what the brushes? Would that cause it to run backwards if the brushes were wired backwards?
im not realy sure how the starters are wired together. i would sugest that if you still have the paper work from who fixed it take it back to them. if not tear her apart and see if you can figure it out. some one here should know how to fix it.
the starter can't be wired backwards, and the brushes can't be backwards either.
remember there are 3 gears inline so the first & 3rd turn the same direction:
O () 0
r L r
pardon my poor rendering above.
if the gear on the left is the starter "O", & turns to the right (for sake of argument)
it's going to turn the intermedeate gear "()", to the left
and the starter clutch gear "0", to the right again.
someone needs to check to see which direction the clutch gear engages & the starter needs to turn in the same direction. (i forget)
quick stupid thought:
could you have installed the clutch housing backwards? (not sure it's even possable)
--Lucky
Quote from: Billy Bob on May 01, 2007, 07:49:54 AM
The starter rotates the same way the gear free wheels.
then your starter is turning in the right direction, because the starter will turn the gear in the OPPOSITE direction (direction of lockup)
i still think your rollers are slipping...
I'm gonna tear it apart and figure out what the heck is going on.
Ok got side cover off, now is the fly wheel bolt reverse thread? What size bolts do I need for puller? Heres a pic with which way the starter is turning.
Thanks, BOB
Ok Pulled the flywheel off, here's a pic of what I got. The rollers and springs and spring keepers come flyin out, those 3 allen bolts on the back of flywheel were all loose, one wearing off a bit... Take a look at picture. What do I have to do now to fix this? tighten bolts and throw in? How are the rollers and springs supposed to sit? Anybody have a manual with some detail on what to do here?
Thanks, BOB
bob, thats commonally refered to as the starter clutch fix. its pretty simple. go to hardware store and get some allen bolts 1-2 threads longer then the ones you have. it goes back together pretty easy. the spring goes in the hole. then the spring cap. then the roller. check the rollers for flat spots. then reinstall the clutch to the flywheel. use loc-tite on the bolts. then flip it all over and peen the ends of the bolts over, thats why you need longer bolts. once done you will not have to do it again.
do you have the other spring and the woodruff key?
You may not be able to find bolts 1 ~ 2 threads longer than the OEM bolts. Just get the next size longer along with a few nuts that fit the bolts. Put 2 nuts on the bolt. Use the top one as a marker for the correct length & the bottom nut as a jam nut so they don't move. Grind the extra length of the bolt off, loosen the jm nut & remove the nuts from the bolt. This preserves the threads and gives you the proper length bolt.
After getting the bolts to the correct length, a dremel tool with a cutting wheel or a small jeweler's file can be used to make a shallow "+" in the end of the bolt. That makes peening them over just a little easier.
H2O
good call h20 i forgot about that. i used a small drill bit and drilled a little hole in the center to make it easier. then used a pointed punch. worked great.
Yeah spring was still sitting in the flywheel, all parts are there. Ok thanks guys, I'll try this out.
woodruff key also?
Yes woodruff key is still sitting in the crank. I took the starter clutch right off the flywheel and it has a big crack in it. Looks like a previous owner must have had a similar problem, all 3 bolts looked like they were center punched on the end. Also the flywheel looks and feels rough around where the rollers are spinning, should I try and smooth these grooves out with some emery cloth? I assume I need a new starter clutch too. Heres a pic.
thats exactly what mine looked like. i was lucky and had a spare. it would be wise to smooth out the croves if you can. if not start looking for a new one. i dont know if you can reuse of fix that clutch though. id replace it.
Well I have definately found the reason why it is freewheeling, the starter is in fact turning backwards. I looked at the direction of the flywheel and it shows it is supposed to be spinning counter-clockwise, now the starter is turning the gear in behind the flywheel clockwise. I have no idea how this is possible. Either way the starter clutch fix is done, now to just figure out wtf is up with the starter.
Reverse polarity? Dont see how thats possible either...
Who ever rebuilt the starter must of done it. They must of hooked up a wire wrong inside. take the back of the starter off and see if you can change the brushes. ill bet they hooked them up wrong. thats the only thing that would cause it.
one brush is staked to the plate, the other has an insulated lead to the terminal.
perhaps something isn't stock.. brush plate, starter itself, etc.
thats what i was sorta thinking. Unless they cut the wire going to the pos stud and the one to the neg clip. The guy may of had to redo all the back of the starter. I guess the staerter needs tore apart and some pics taken so we can figure this one out. side note, i tore my spare apart to see what could of gone wrong and its full of oil. Looks like ill br rebuilding that. And it bench tested good. I know my other one is junk. It was sumerged in water and mud after i rolled mt truck and it wont turn at all.
Ok pulled starter out again, here's a pic of the wiring.
Hey Billy Bob, good progress. I got a spare flywheel and starter clutch, willing to help! ;D
Hey PS2, thanks for the tip: to keep my bike starter in good shape, don't roll my truck in mud. Check.
Lou
Quote from: Billy Bob on May 31, 2007, 12:07:22 PM
Ok pulled starter out again, here's a pic of the wiring.
the configuration looks good to me, nothing wired backwards there...
yup the back is wired right. What does the front look like? There should be a gear on the end of the armeture with two planetary gears that go around it. I dont know how changing anything in the front would reverse it but it would at least tell us that we are indead working with a vision starter.
im starting to lean towards luckys view. Fix that starter clutch, make sure its a vision starter and then we will have to go from there. It was most likely the clutch all this time but if the starter is the right one and its turning the wrong way then we got some issues.
I did the starter clutch fix, and just slipped it on the end of the crank and tried rolling the bike over, it still freewheels. Gear behind the flywheel is turning opposite way (clockwise) that the flywheel is supposed to go (counter clockwise).
I even took the gear and flywheel w/ starter clutch assembly out and spun the gear in place on the flywheel using a drill just to see if maybe my starter was going too slow, but it still never engaged. The starter has to be going backwards.
Maybe i'm being too obtuse, but isnt that how gears are supposed to work though? For every gear mesh theres a change in rotation?
Pardon my quick & dirty paint skills..
Lets take this logicly:
i don't know remember for a fact, so we will take what you said as fact as far as the direction the starter turns.
1) if the starter turns CLOCKWISE, as you indicate, then the starter idler gear must turn COUNTER clockwise. the starter clutch gear (and flywheel, if the springs & rollers are working properly) MUST turn CLOCKWISE.
2) Lets assume the starter is turning in the right direction, the photo of the end cap seems to support that.
3) If 1 & 2 are true, then something else must be wrong. Possabilities, however remote:
A) the 'ring' gear is loose from the rest of the clutch somehow, i forget if it's cast as one piece, so this may or may not be possable.
B) the piece that holds the rollers & springs is in 'backwards'. again, may or may not be possable, but if it is possable, the rollers would be angled at the wrong direction & would grab the clutch hub in the oppisete direction as well.
c) rollers & springs installed incorrectly, or springs very weak.
D) something else like the woodruf key is wrong, the clutch gear is bent & missing the idler gear alltogether, etc.
couple-a things:
--someone needs to VERIFY the direction things turn in an independedt Vision,
-- Billy, you need to verify the direction your starter turns when power is applied WHILE INSTALLED (jump it if you have to)
--pull the clutch cover, a plug, something & verify that the engine isn't actually turning. (don't discount this step)
--Lucky
I still have my cover off, I had the flywheel back on the crank with woodruff key in so flywheel cannot turn on the crank. I hit starter switch and it just freewheels away, gears all turn but the clutch is not engaging. The directions that are drawn on picture are the way everything is spinning. The flywheel does not move. Engine is not siezed. I could take a video of it but I have no idea of how to post that do to its size. I have not torqued the flywheel back on and try it, maybe I need the pressure of the thrustwasher and bolt holding it all together to get the proper effect? Could try that???
so the starter clutch gear behind the flywheel turns, but the flywheel doesn't (correct?)
if you remove the idler gear & turn the clutch gear behind the flywheel back & forth (clockwise & counter clockwise) just by hand, does it grab one way at all)
if it grabs in the 'correct' direction, then either:
--the springs, caps & rollers are not doing their job, make sure this is correct (i believe you can do this with the flywheel & clutch off the bike):
the springs go on first, then the caps, then the rollers. the way the clutch is designed, the parts are at an angle to the hub part of the flywheel they ride on, & 'jamb' against the flywheel hub in one direction only.
or the rollers, hub surface, springs or something is dammaged & too 'loose' to allow the rollers to jamb properly.
if the clutch catches in the 'wrong' direction then the main part of the clutch that holds the springs caps & rollers HAS to somehow be installed backwards, or has a crack in it that opens up when force is applied, & you missed it the first time around.
you'll have to operate things slowly & watch carefully to determine what is wrong. close observation is the key to finding the cause.
--Lucky
btw, if you suspect a crack, , run the part in some sandy soil, (at least up north ;D ) you'll pick up naturaly occuring iron particals. if there is a crack, some of them will align along the crack (assuming the part is magnitised, & i'll bet it is spinning inside those flywheel magnets)
--Lucky
here's a thought: make sure the springs, caps, and rollers are installed correctly and are able to do their job...
without the gear, the rollers ought to protrude into the hole of the starter clutch. when you go to put the gear into the clutch, it doesn't just slide right in... you have to hold the rollers back
you kinda tilt the gear to depress two of them and then use a screw driver to depress the last one...
sound familar?
i just rotated mine 'backwards' & pushed. pops right in.
When I rotate the gear counterclockwise it grabs right away. Springs, caps and rollers are all installed correctly, they protrude out and I have to spin the gear to get it to drop in. There are no visible cracks.
if you are looking from the back of the starter clutch, and when turning the gear cclockwise, it engages, then that is correct. then if you look at from the other side, it would be turning flywheel clockwise which is correct,,,
so if you look at luckys' pic, looking at the nose of the starter, it should turn clockwise, the idler gear goes cc, the starter clucth gear goes clockwise (or counter clock wise if you are looking at it from the rear) the flywheel and crank go clockwise.
this is incorrect, looking at the starter nose, the starter should turn counter clock wise and the flywheel turns counter clockwise...
Your starter clutch is cracked. The crack is visible in the picture. This is enough to make the starter freewheel. I have a collection with cracks just like this and they all freewheel. The crack lets the clutch spread open instead of grabbing the gear and turning the flywheel. They can be grooved and :) TIG welded. You have to be very careful not to get any weld material in the hole for the spring. Its very difficult to remove. The spring hole is the thin spot and where they always crack.
Good luck
Ron
sure as heck is!! wionder why i didn't notice it before!!
heck i missed that crack too. thats what my first was cracked like. looks like you need a new starter clutch.
I saw it <_< i just assumed everyone else did. I also assumed it was fine because nobody mentioned it :o
Thats my old starter clutch. I got a new used one from samsr. New one is not cracked. Flywheel has an arrow on it that shows it should be rotating counter clockwise, which is the way that my starter clutch grabs, but my starter does not turn it that way. My starter turns the gear in behind clockwise and it just freewheels. This is why I believe it is my starter. It was rebuilt 2 years ago and never ran the bike since i got it back. But if the wiring is good then I don't know how it can run backwards. I might just switch the wires around for the hell of it and see what happens.
ok, one other thought then:
the starter has inedxes on the parts to keep it lined up properlu, but i do know that if they are bent a bit they don't hold. i'll bet it's possable to turn the end plate 108 degrees out. i think, in theroy, this could cause the starter to turn backwards?
the can motors on my (now my sons) elecrtic RC cars have 'timing' marks. simply turning the end bell a few degrees changes affects the torque/rpm of the motor. not sure if a 12V system would be the same, or if you turned the end bell on the rc motor all the way if it would spin backwards, but if nothing else, it's worth an inspection.
on my V the pos post on the starter is in fromt of the 10mm mounting hole. or maybe the plate is 180 out but the end cap still reaches...
fft --Lucky
Interesting thread, sticky material here!
Quote from: Billy Bob on May 01, 2007, 07:49:54 AM
I took the starter out and it works great I just had it rebuilt last year, but never ran the bike. (I put positive to terminal and negative to frame of starter). The starter rotates the same way the gear free wheels....
Quote from: Billy Bob on June 03, 2007, 09:21:58 AM
Thats my old starter clutch. I got a new used one from samsr. New one is not cracked. Flywheel has an arrow on it that shows it should be rotating counter clockwise, which is the way that my starter clutch grabs, but my starter does not turn it that way. My starter turns the gear in behind clockwise and it just freewheels. This is why I believe it is my starter. It was rebuilt 2 years ago and never ran the bike since i got it back. But if the wiring is good then I don't know how it can run backwards. I might just switch the wires around for the hell of it and see what happens.
Well, my head is spinning here, but I'm not sure in which direction ??? ;)
Unless you have the starter removed from the bike I would not connect reverse polarity unless both of the starter terminals are isolated electrically from the engine/frame of the bike. The disconnected negative terminal of the
starter should I believe, under normal circumstances have continuity with the chassis of the bike, yes? You confirmed this youself by bench testing the starter out of the bike in the first quote above. If true would this not be a way to tell if it is miswired internally? If that were so though, I suppose there would have been a dead short upon installing a battery. A few continuity tests along with the fact that the starter clutch is spinning the opposite direction seems to confirm your beliefs that the starter is the culprit here. I think!
Hey if you could get the engine to run backwards....just think, 5 reverse gears :o !
lucky i think your on to something here. i was just reading in my manual about the aligment marks on the starter. you think it could be that.
and i thought there wasent anything on these bikes that someone hasent had happen. this is a new one for sure.
If the ring gear inside the nose of the starter isn't pinned to the case, would that cause the wrong rotation direction?
Well I don't know what happened but after I put my starter all back together I tested it and it is now turning the right way, so I put it back on the bike slapped the flywheel on the crank and tested it, sure enough she is rolling over good now - the right way counter clock wise. I dont know what caused it to run backwards, maybe a grounded wire inside or something?
This may be forever, an unsolved vision mystery, but its working awesome now and thats all I care about :) Thanks for all your help and time. Oh also whats the torque spec on the flywheel and case bolts?
Thanks, BOB
ARRRGHH!! no definative solution!!
ya killin me! ;D
The torque specs are normally listed in the Haynes manual - at the front of each chapter. There's also a table in there someplace that gives the proper torque setting for each bolt size. Don't have my manuals handy at the moment or I could give you an exact answer.
H2O
I cast my vote for reverse polearity, there's nothing else that makes the motor go the wrong way.
Quote from: Lucky on June 03, 2007, 06:25:44 PM
ARRRGHH!! no definative solution!!
ya killin me! ;D
Welcome to life Lucky ;D Even my bike I can only make a good guess as to what caused the problem. If you work around computers long enough, you'll discover the "must pet the computer" problem. It goes like this: a problem crops up, you open the case and the problem goes away. You close the case, and it stays away. ???
Brian
hm Brian sounds like my fzr. battery boiled over last summer. i meen bone dry inside. filled with tap water, 2 amp charge for a day and been good ever since. still dont know what caused it.