Hey..had a fun start of the day...went to get on the freeway this morning, and as I accelerated doen the ramp I developed a moderate to severe front end wobble....rolled off the throttle let the engine slow the bike, wobble persisted all the way to a dead stop. Put her up on the center stand...did a quick front end check. Head bearings seem ok, brakes, axle, wheel weights, tires..all seemed normal...got back on...no wobble. Up to speed on freeway, no wobble......about 10 miles on a secondary road, coming out of a medium turn...moderate wobble till I pulled the clutch...wobble went away. Rode all the way home later in the day, no wobble at all. I do have the fork brace, by the way. Any ideas? Is there somethi g else to check, or is it just another Vision quirk?
If the wobble is not trying to shake the bars from your hands. It is a rear end problem...tire, wheel, swing-arm. Also the '82 shock is a piece of junk. If you are working the bars... it is the front...then the steering bearings or loose wheel. Also check the right frame bolts. But These steering ball bearings in front are only good for 20k max. Anyone with more than that is kidding themselves...saying, "they are good".
the tapered roller bearing head set is a frequent and always praised upgrade. loose ball headsets wear out pretty fast-the contact area is small relative to the loads and if you ride on rougher roads or have ever overtightened it it goes away faster. fork brace is liked as well but if your headset is worn a fork brace will not cure it
the lower bearing takes most of the loads so wears out first. the wear process is called brunelling (sp?) the balls actually sink into the races.
bicycles have this problem as well. you can feel the headset actually ratcheting as you turn the steerer in the frame.
the roller bearing headsets are specialty items so cannot be bought at the regular bearing store. most MC wholesalers carry them. it has been a while so i forget the price. someone here has probably done this recently
Do you suppose it is related to your frame being tweaked? If I remember correctly, you and kiawrench changed your swingarm out a while ago because your rear wheel is crooked but it didn't correct the problem. It may be time to look up a frame service.
slightly bent frame -by itself- will not cause a wobble. however, it will make one caused by looseness at one end or the other worse!
Does anyone have a part number and estimated price on a tapered set of head bearings? I'll have to see about getting the swingarm mount I think is tweaked, straightened....IF I ever sell the bike I really wouldn't want to sell it with a tweaked frame. Even though it doesn't seem to affect the handling. I'll check the fron end closr this weekend...my quick inspection consisted of a quick shake and tug test and I didn't feel any slop in the fork head... but I imagine it wwouldn't hurt to change out the head bearings.
If anything gets tweaked in an accident ...It's the front steering neck or bottom triple tree. When you go down ...you go "head first" a.k.a. front wheel. Unless the bike got run over by a truck. Then all bets are off.
As far as tweaked..it looks like the rear was slid or ran up against a curb, from the angle of the rear wheel. I really don't think the bike went down as in a rolling wreck.
Found the tapered bearings on Dennis Kirk for $40. Now I just have to wait till the 1st to buy them.
Quote from: GA_Wolf on May 22, 2004, 05:18:18 PM
As far as tweaked..it looks like the rear was slid or ran up against a curb, from the angle of the rear wheel. I really don't think the bike went down as in a rolling wreck.
Found the tapered bearings on Dennis Kirk for $40. Now I just have to wait till the 1st to buy them.
Bit of a ressurrection but thanks for postin' the info. Going now as I likely need these as well being over 18k on mine. Then we'll see how the rest 'shakes' out. ;)
Quote from: rick_nowak on May 22, 2004, 08:21:00 AM
slightly bent frame -by itself- will not cause a wobble. however, it will make one caused by looseness at one end or the other worse!
I'd totally disagree with you, you can have the tightest front end in the land but if your rear wheel is out of alignment it can easily set up an occilation like the OP described
But still, new tapered bearings on a V are a must have/must do.
David
Quote from: inanecathode on June 27, 2007, 03:15:35 PM
Quote from: rick_nowak on May 22, 2004, 08:21:00 AM
slightly bent frame -by itself- will not cause a wobble. however, it will make one caused by looseness at one end or the other worse!
I'd totally disagree with you, you can have the tightest front end in the land but if your rear wheel is out of alignment it can easily set up an occilation like the OP described
ok, I'll disagree with
you.... you can have your steering head bearings cranked too tight and wallow / oscillate / shake / shimmy, whatever you want you want to call it.... going down the road
go ahead... try it if you don't believe me
I've noticed that my V starts that kind of "wobble" at any speed in a corner hitting a bump. Or while getting over 70 mph, it starts the "wobble" on it's own. I figured it's in the rear end.
I'm guessing I have to check the wheel bearings and the swingarm mounts and the alignment of the rear wheel. I have the tapered bearing for the peckerhead, but not installed yet. I'm hoping to get to that this weekend.
start with the tapered bearings... you'll want that anyway and it's the best $40-$50 upgrade going
Tightened and overtightened are two different things.
I inspected the bike and found that my rear tire has a flat spot in the center of the tread area and only on one spot of the entire distance around (circ#$%$#%@ <-- can't spell it).
Anyway, I'm going to get a rear tire for it and was going to get a BT45 for it....should I replace the front tire also? I've heard from several points throughout the years that there needs to be "compatible" tread front and rear or some shimmying can occur. Is there any truth to this are was I being jerked?
If you are going to get a BT-45 for the rear go ahead and get the BT-45 for the front in the 100/80 by 18 size. The 80 section front was created just for bikes of our era and the Vision specificly. It reduces the tendency for the bike to weave or wobble and makes it a much better handling bike.
Jeff
Quote from: inanecathode on June 28, 2007, 12:12:04 AM
Tightened and overtightened are two different things.
and "tightest front end in the land" is what then? overtightenedest?
Quote from: jlsracing on June 28, 2007, 07:21:45 AM
If you are going to get a BT-45 for the rear go ahead and get the BT-45 for the front in the 100/80 by 18 size. The 80 section front was created just for bikes of our era and the Vision specificly. It reduces the tendency for the bike to weave or wobble and makes it a much better handling bike.
Jeff
I'm going to heed that tire recommendation for the project bike, probably drill out the sideframe too like you suggest...
I want to have the tightest bike in the land... well, except for properly adjusted steering bearings ;)
::)
Quote from: jlsracing on June 28, 2007, 07:21:45 AM
If you are going to get a BT-45 for the rear go ahead and get the BT-45 for the front in the 100/80 by 18 size. The 80 section front was created just for bikes of our era and the Vision specificly. It reduces the tendency for the bike to weave or wobble and makes it a much better handling bike.
Jeff
That could be part of it on mine. The treads don't match, and the rear tire has something on the side along the lines of Front Tire Only). :o So when I get some money I'll see about getting some BT45s for front & rear.
Another part of it I think is a section of one of the roads I use. They repaved it not long ago but apparently didn't smooth it well. It's bumpy with both the truck and the bike but I'd imagine if I catch the sides of the bumps on that part it'd be like doing moguls on skis or a snowboard and will wobble. I rode it into town a bit yesterday and with the exception of that stretch of road and some of the other lousy ones around here it actually went pretty smooth. I still plan to order the bearings this weekend though if I can figure the right ones since I'd guarantee they need to be replaced anyhoo.
Quote from: Aelwulf on June 28, 2007, 12:30:35 PM
I still plan to order the bearings this weekend though if I can figure the right ones since I'd guarantee they need to be replaced anyhoo.
:) Here is the link to a company that I have got 2 x set's from...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Yamaha-XZ550-XZ-550-82-83-Steering-Stem-Bearings_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35591QQihZ001QQitemZ110133815726QQrdZ1
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Thanks, I'll check that one too when I get home. Can't check eBay anymore from work. :(
I've got a set of oem ball bearings if anyones interested ::)
could use the bearings in a sling shot :P
Nah, they're too small...
:) You could use them in your gas tank to clean out the rust...about all there good for ;D :D :D :D... ;)
8).......TIGER....... 8)
AW: Question. With your bike on center stand, with the front wheel somehow held off the ground, can the handle bars be moved from lock to lock with zero or virtually zero effort. Can you move them with barely the touch of just one finger. If the answer to these questions is "no", then you have found the source of your wobble, namely either steering head bearings that are adjusted too tight or are poorly lubricated or both. Regardless, if your bearings are OEM, tapered rollers are the no brainer upgrade.
Please do the test I've outlined above and let me know what you find out.
to get the front wheel off the ground...Use the centerstand and a tiedown strap from the rear grab handle to just about any pole.
I'll try to give that a shot tomorrow. I can usually get it on the centerstand alright just doing a step 'n' pull. :)
Front end turned fine on the stand, didn't move like silk per se but could with one finger easy enough. HAve tapered bearings on order anyway. Except for the rough roads it seems to do fine, exception was heading home yesterday from the Academy. I was stopping at a stop sign on base that was approached on a curve so I was down to first and about stopped before straightening out. When I did the front wheel seemed to wobble a bit. Made the right turn and no wobble, seemed fine rest of the way home. So just some lean wobble in the front wheel, or bearings or other issue down there? I can't seem to make anything on that end do anything wrong or conspicuous so far when it's on the center stand.
yeah sounds about like what I have going on too. My bearings arent notchy at any point when up on the stand and it turns easily in all positions yet I have wobble when in a sweeper going 45mph+ or when going straight 90mph+. I am doing the tapered head bearing upgrade just to rule it out as a cause but I also suspect the frame as a culprit.
Wouldnt easy of rotation be conducive to some head wobble too? I'm thinking if it swivels too easily it wont absorb and wobble that tries to start.
yes, but I tightened mine down but the wobble still will happen...just a slight bit later. That is why I dont really think it is the bearings but like I said...I'll rule it out and then move on to frame strengthening
Assuming the given bike has good, properly lubed and adjusted steering head bearings, steering wobble may be operator induced, especially at higher speeds, and/or in turns. This can be a problem more often seen on unfaired bikes than those with frame mounted fairings like the '83. On the '82 V for example, at moderate to higher speeds the operator must maintain a good grip on the hand grips so as not to get blown off the bike. Having to hold on tightly can lead the operator to unknowingly give the bike very small subtle and unintended steering inputs through the handle bars which causes the bike to attempt to change direction. This is situation is often greatly aggravated when cross winds and sudden wind gusts heavily impact the sail that is the operators' upper torso. These unintended directional inputs and changes are then
semi-automatically (often unaware) corrected by the operator with the end result being interpreted as bike induced steering wobble. In fact, it is steering wobble, but rather operator induced instead of bike induced.
The fix is a change in bike operation. First, be very sensitive to your grip on the handle bars and how much weight you're leaning on them with, and be very alert to what steering inputs you're giving the bike. The faster the speed, the more responsive the bike becomes. At really high speeds, a little bit can go a very very long way. All the way to terminal if you're not paying close attention to your riding.
Second, especially in higher speed turns, don't support you upper body with the handlebars. Clamp the gas tank between your knees and use your back muscles to support the upper torso. The contact between your hands and the hand grips should be almost (but not quite!) non existent. Just the lightest touch. Try using just the finger tips to get a feel for how very little input is really necessary to maintain control through a fast sweeper.
Third, practice riding in buffeting air, rough winds, and cross winds with only your finger tips in contact with the had grips. In actuality, bikes are inherently stable at speed and resist directional change(Just ask Rolle Freed as he is setting his Bonneville speed record on his Vincent Black Shadow). They require only the lightest most sensitive touch to maintain steady state stability. Practice to the point where you automatically switch to an ultra light touch on the hand grips whenever you're riding in rough air and sense the first touch of gust impact. Let the bike take the hit and do its thing. Passing an 18 wheeler going in the opposite direction on a 2 lane road is typically such a situation.
HTH. All the Best.
Quote from: QBS on July 01, 2007, 02:35:56 PM
Assuming the given bike has good, properly lubed and adjusted steering head bearings, steering wobble may be operator induced, especially at higher speeds, and/or in turns.
Not sure I'd call it steering wobble unless that's just a general term for when it happens in the front end. The handle bars are fine, no vibration/wobble in them typically-just the front wheel.
Thanks for the other tips though, I've already noticed I tend to grasp a bit hard. I've relaxed the hold with my left hand for the most part but still working on my right. Easy to practice here since we tend to have winds off/around Pikes Peak nearly every evening if not all day. :P
Quote from: kwells on July 01, 2007, 01:57:52 PM
yes, but I tightened mine down but the wobble still will happen...just a slight bit later. That is why I dont really think it is the bearings but like I said...I'll rule it out and then move on to frame strengthening
a shark faring will also contribute to head shake... :o 'specially if you don't have tapers....
soon as I rode my brother's sharkless.... I knew mine had to go
Anything attached to the bike before the steering head bearings(windshields, fairings, human sails) and not to the frame, that can affected by wind inputs, has the potential for moving the handlebars and thus leading to wobble. For a long time I have had very serious misgivings about such devices. In the early days of motorcycling the problems weren't so obvious because poor roads and relatively slow heavy bikes kept air speeds down. Improvements in roads and technology have led to lighter faster bikes with much better roads to haul ass on. The lighter the bike, the more the susceptibility to wobble because there is less mass to dampen out(slow down) the oscillations.
Interesting to note that among current day bikes, only slower, lower, and heavier bikes (think cruisers and similar full boat bagger type tourers)have the availability of handlebar mounted windshield type devices from their mfgers.
I just ordered a set of tapered headset bearing from Pyramid direct for $30 plus shipping. Ebay has same for more $. Still waiting to arrive so I don't know the quality.
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/pyramidusa/Items/br25-3068?
Mine were done last weekend but I'm still waiting to get some miles on her to see if it improves anything. Most seem to say it a MUST do mod but I cant say one way or another in the 70 miles I put on it since it was done.
Difference may not be as noticeable with your low mileage V. Didn't have a chance to get the balls flattened or the races dimpled.
H2O
Just noticed my V is starting to have some head wobble too. If i'm going faster than 50 and i suddenly let off the throttle the head shakes a bit then steadies out.
Tapered bearings, where do i get these again?
H20 has some barely used ball bearings you could maybe acquire.
They're kind of mixed in with the old flattened ones from my bike, now. Could be a prize grab bag. Count the correct number out & hope they're all round. ;D In a couple weeks, I should have another set as well!
H2O
Hey h2o, do you want to help me do my fork seals?
Next week sometime. Going rafting this weekend! ;D
Wanna do it at my house? I've got the air tools that make it soooooo much easier.
Fork seals are EZ! Shouldn't take too long. Then maybe an Estes Park ride for an afternoon snack?
Let's see what the thunderstorm forecast is for next week.
H2O
sounds like a plan man, i should know next weeks schedule work wise on saturday
Oh by the way, I'm very happy to report that other then feeling the start of something leaned over in a tight turn on one of the switch backs with ripples in the asphat, I seem to have cured my previous front end wobble. New bearings of course and two or three times to re-tighten. Drove many miles at 75+ and hit 80-85 several times with no problems (other then Rex who was still a bike length ahead of me-but he twisted his throttle first-so the advantage was his-we never did hear the words H2O was saying to us as he suddenly came up on two Visions going a lot slower then he expected-just before we cracked em open for the race-I gave up after I pegged the speedometer).
I'm waiting to do mine. The new bearings are sitting in my room here, don't think I really have everything at the moment to take the whole front end off to do 'em before I'm moved. :(
Quote from: Tiger on June 28, 2007, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Aelwulf on June 28, 2007, 12:30:35 PM
I still plan to order the bearings this weekend though if I can figure the right ones since I'd guarantee they need to be replaced anyhoo.
:) Here is the link to a company that I have got 2 x set's from...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Yamaha-XZ550-XZ-550-82-83-Steering-Stem-Bearings_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35591QQihZ001QQitemZ110133815726QQrdZ1
Those are the ones I ordered, another link on page 2 here has 'em direct from Pyramid for $30 so a l'il cheaper. Two options.
I replaced my head bearings w/ the tapered ones and had it a little too tight at first. I thought it was okay until a test ride at 35 revieled that it felt as though it was riding on a see-saw. I loosened the head just a smidge and now it's okay. No shake like tiger described anymore. Woo Hoo! ;D