Riders Of Vision

General => TechTalk => Topic started by: turbosteve84 on January 24, 2015, 08:09:12 PM

Title: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on January 24, 2015, 08:09:12 PM
Proceeding -- slowly due to crappy weather here in the Northeast U.S. -- with my Vision Café Racer project, the Visioné It snowed here today, but when it stopped I continued work on the rear frame modification. Found an old steel folding chair with 7/8" diameter frame -- same diameter as the Vision frame. So I figured, what the hell? Went with the bend of the chairs rails which resulted in the back of the "hoop" coming to a point. Again, what the hell? --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on January 24, 2015, 10:16:12 PM
Won't that join angle force you to have a ridge running up the cowl centreline? 
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: jefferson on January 25, 2015, 12:16:33 AM
I think that looks alot better than the regular old round ones.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on January 25, 2015, 08:04:32 AM
Quote from: ProphetOfDoom on January 24, 2015, 10:16:12 PM
Won't that join angle force you to have a ridge running up the cowl centreline?

Perhaps, but whatever I'm just going to roll with it. I can always flatten out the crease as the cowl moves forward to where it meets the seat. --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on February 26, 2015, 04:05:03 PM
Brutally cold here most of this month, so work is proceeding s-l-o-w-l-y on my Visioné Café project.
I did manage to drag the frame to a shop to get the rear-end welded in place. Made a last-minute pan -- literally took me 5 minutes -- to weld in there for future electric gizmos, maybe a gel battery. Now it's on to shaping a tail piece. THAT should be fun. --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: Rikugun on February 27, 2015, 02:34:24 PM
Even slow progress is better than none and I feel your pain with the cold. I'll be looking forward to your tail piece build as I'm not familiar with those kinds of fabricating practices. What process will you use?
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on March 02, 2015, 09:27:04 PM
You're not familiar with tail piece fabricating? That makes two of us!
I'm going to carve it out of blocks of foam insulation and then lay strips of fiberglass over it. Never done either so this should be interesting! Saw it done on YouTube.
I took the image I Photoshopped of the bike and scaled the tail piece up to full size. From there I'm making a template to pin onto the foam so I can get a rough shape. Then it's carving and shaping the foam to something that (hopefully) looks like the Photoshopped image. Have to wait for warm weather to lay the fiberglass as I told it's something you definitely want to do outdoors. Then it's sanding, Bondo, and more sanding before painting. At least that's the plan.
Haven't a clue as to how I'm going to fasten the finished piece to the frame. Haven't found a YouTube video on that yet, so I'm open to suggestions. --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: fret not on March 03, 2015, 01:27:04 AM
It might be a good idea to start with the mounting 'system', and work from there.  It may take some "engineering" to get it figured out, and you may have to make a couple different pieces (and molds) that get 'glued' together after they are formed in the molds.  The widest section of the part must be at the opening of the mold, otherwise you lock the part into the mold and lose both.  So plan the shapes to be easily released from the molds.  It will help to make a mock up of cardboard or wood so you get the idea firmly grasped in your mind, and to test the shapes for the process.

I have made some molds using urethane foam NOT STYROFOAM.  Styrofoam will melt and deform from the polyester resin, I tried it once.  Urethane foam is usually yellow or brownish, similar but not the same as the stuff they sell in a can for filling up voids in walls and such.  The foam I used was two inch (50mm) thick commercial insulation panels, and I glued pieces together with the auto body filler (Bondo etc.).  It helps to make the pieces of foam fit together closely so there isn't much Bondo between them because the foam is soooo much easier to carve than the Bondo.  I guess you could also glue the foam together with urethane glue like Gorilla Glue etc. since it is mostly the same stuff.

You need mold release, and you need to learn how to use it.  You will need acetone to clean up with.  You should have a bunch of cheap bristle brushes 1" - 2" (25mm - 75mm) that get used once and thrown away as the resin sets.  With the brushes you apply the resin and dab at the air bubbles under the glass fabric to dislodge them.  Make sure you get any loose fibers laid down into the resin because anything that is sticking up or out will get hard as the resin sets and become dangerous to your hands.  This also helps make a neater job of it.

It's a messy job especially for the uninitiated, but you will learn to keep your area clear, and to prevent some issues down the line.

There are a couple approaches to consider, that being making a 'one off', or making a mold so that many duplicates can be made.  It's about the same amount of work either way, so consider making the mold, you might be able to sell some parts.  Then there are the inside and outside mold types.  The inside mold you make your buck or plug, and make your part over the outside of that, finishing the surface.  The outside mold you make your buck or plug and make your mold over that.  Then you do any surface refinement on the inside of that mold, wax it and start making your parts in it.

It can take a lot of thought to get it all good the first time.  You will learn as you go, come up with better ways to do things, become more efficient and better at the process.  You just gained skill by doing this.

Harbor Fright has nytril gloves.  Try to keep your skin away from the resin, hardener (especially), and thinner.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: Rikugun on March 03, 2015, 09:00:59 AM
Good tips there Fret. I like the idea of planning the attachment method beforehand and working backwards from there. Maybe tabs on the frame with j-nuts and reinforced areas on the cowl where screws go through?

I'd considered doing a layup of carbon fiber and/or fiberglass on a broken '83 windscreen to use as a mounting plate for a MadStad windscreen. I researched it briefly but an alternate way came about and I never tried it. I saw some YT vids where they had small (metallic?) rollers they used on the wet fabric to work bubbles out too.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: fret not on March 03, 2015, 01:08:23 PM
The rollers are like tiny agricultural plow discs, and are very effective on smooth flat surfaces but can't get into corners and recesses very well.  That's where the brushes work very well.

Like many areas of endeavor, the materials are costly but not as costly as the time you will have to put into the project.  Sometimes it's better to scrap what you spent hours doing and start over with a fresh and better approach.  It can 'cost' more to save a mis-designed part than to make a new one.  been there, done that.

I am not a professional fiberglass guy, but I have done enough of this stuff to know my way around.  My brother in law and I designed the fairing for my brother's salt flats Suzuki  It was a real trip in all senses.  It took about ten days of sixteen hours each to make the plug and get it ready for fabric and resin.  I know how to mix a batch of bondo and get it on before the 'pot' goes off.  You want to shape the filler BEFORE it totally cures, otherwise it gets very hard and takes a lot of elbow grease to work it down.  Much easier shortly after the 'pot' kicks off.

Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on March 07, 2015, 09:51:42 AM
Thanks for all the tips., guys. I'm using polystyrene insulation for the mold. I've heard that "florist's foam" is easier to shape, but I've got the poly stuff and fashioned a hot-wire cutter so I'll go with that. With the method I saw on YouTube you can't salvage the mold -- at least not the way demonstrated in the video. But having copies made intrigues me.

Fret Nut -- why does a classic like Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol not get the respect of something like A Charlie Brown Christmas? The injustice of it.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: fret not on March 08, 2015, 12:43:41 AM
Your question may require some deep thought. ;)

Let me suggest you test your resin process on the styrene foam.  Years ago I tried to make a road race seat with styrene foam as the base material for the plug.  It melted and deformed before the resin hardened.  I suppose that if you sealed the foam completely so the polyester resin won't contact it you could use styrene.  As we say in the guitar making business when a new process comes along; "test on scrap before you risk your good material". :police:

The urethane foam we used came from a trailer manufacturer, and was 'cast off' so we got it for free.  It might pay to seek out industrial operations that use the urethane foam and go through their dumpster.  Or just go buy a panel of the stuff at the building supply store.   :)
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on March 09, 2015, 04:32:13 PM
Good video on making molds here from Dime City Cycles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT6P7qaUPLw

I should have my custom fuel tank back from fabrication in two weeks. I mounted the tank and tail templates to the frame (see photo). Tank will fit the lines of the bike better than shown here (this is an early template). Tail will be more level on the top. These forms were made from the little image I Photoshopped oh so long ago. Amazing how little correcting I had to do on the full-size templates. Once these two pieces are "real" I'll start with the seat. Too difficult to fabricate myself, so I'll be farming that out after I make a workable pan. --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on March 21, 2015, 04:57:20 PM
Cleared yesterday's snow from my yard and shaped the tail piece today! I think it came out OK and I'm happy to say I'm satisfied. Used florist's foam instead of the polystyrene for the plug. It's easier to shape -- maybe too easy. Finished it off with 150 grit sandpaper because the 100 I was using was removing material too fast! Rounded the back instead of angling it like in my Photoshopped model. I want to fit it OVER the frame rails, so I needed the back to be vertical for about an inch-and-a-half. An angled back wouldn't allow that.

Another first time effort for me will be fiberglassing the plug. Been watching YouTube videos on it (Dime City Cycles has a good one) so I'm going in with a little confidence. --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: fret not on March 22, 2015, 01:07:07 AM
Give some thought to getting the plug out of the mold.  I think you may best make 2 molds, one for the outside shape you just created, and one for the actual part you sit on and lean your butt against.  It's easy enough to make two molds, and glass the two parts together after they are removed from their molds.  If you can do it with just one mold more power to you.  Just remember that all surfaces in the mold must open toward the separation edge of your part(s).  To simplify the concept: you can make a wedge shape with the wide part at the opening of the mold, but you can't make a wedge shape with the wide part deeper in the mold.  Well, you COULD make it that way but you would have to destroy the mold th get the part out and then would not be able to make repeated copies.

This requires a bit of planning, and it is better to do that before you start making parts rather than after.  It's all about making things fit when you go to use them
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on March 22, 2015, 08:09:37 AM
I hear you. Once I get this rear cowl glassed and have the fuel tank in hand I can measure out the dimensions of the seat/butt rest. I figure it's easier that way, with the seat/butt rest being the variable that will be sized to fit between the rear cowl and tank. I'm thinking of a two-piece affair, similar to the SDR250 pictured here...
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on April 15, 2015, 12:08:55 PM
OK, tail piece is glassed!

My first try at this, so in that light I'm kinda satisfied. Will require more sanding and Bondo-ing than I had planned but all I've got is time.

Some tips:

1) DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT DOING THIS INDOORS. Fiberglass strands get EVERYWHERE. There's a reason in the best YouTube videos the glasser is covered in a hazmat suit. And the narcotic fumes? In the words of that immortal stoner J. Hendirx, "Excuse me, while I kiss the sky!"

2) I used one quart (U.S.) of resin for this little tailpiece. Mix a quarter pint at a time -- that's all it takes to cover something this size. If you mix too much you're throwing half of it out. Resin, glass, resin. Repeat.

3) Never touch the piece with your hands. It's tempting, but if you have to stabilize the piece fasten it to A VERY LARGE PIECE OF PLYWOOD beforehand. My GLOVED hands looked like a yeti's paws in no time! Live and learn.

4) CUT SMALL PIECES OF FIBERGLASS MAT BEFORE YOU MIX THE RESIN AND TEST THEM ON THE PLUG. Any moron (hands?) like me can glass a flat surface. Mastering those curves is what separates the men from the boys. Too big a piece of mat will be tough to work around the curves. Trust me.

5) WORK CAREFREE WITHOUT FINESSE! (Good news for those with meat cleavers at the end of their wrists). Can't believe I just typed that! I've always learned "finesse over force," but here you want neither. POUR the resin on and really let the fiberglass mat soak in over it thoroughly. I used the mat-over-resin method. The more saturated the glass the easier it is to work. And keep applying resin! I found that the more you work it the slower it gels up. Get messy! It's easy, trust me (again).

6) I used two applications of glass and I'm satisfied with the thickness. Of course I haven't sanded it yet so that could change. But I can always apply more glass.

7) Don't bother trying to save the plug. I know, I know, you want to maybe make multiple copies in the future. Shaping the piece is a lot easier (I found) than the messy job of glassing. If you use florists' foam like I did it's very hard to remove the plug without crushing the foam. I you want to make multiple copies carve a plug out of wood.

8) (Why am I getting an sunglassed face here when I wanted the number eight?). You don't need a specialized release agent. Car wax is fine -- lots of it. Apply, apply and then apply some more. Don't buff it (why would you?). After writing tip #7 I remembered that the top of the plug came out in one piece. Why? That's where the most wax was.

Next it's on to sanding and Bondo-ing.  --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: fret not on April 16, 2015, 01:20:46 AM
Steve, are you going to make the seat pan and attach it to the 'cowl' you just made?  Usually the seat and 'cowl' are one piece when completed.  Hey, whatever works should be good, right?
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on April 16, 2015, 06:26:46 PM
Yes. Mounting the tail, waiting (still) for the fabricated tank, then will measure how much room I'll need for the missing piece of the puzzle, the seat. Unorthodox, yes, but I can't see why it wouldn't work. I've plenty to do in the meantime to keep me busy, like sanding the glassed tail, re-assembling the forks (with Progressive springs), and glass-beading and polishing or painting various parts. Anyone ever paint rear the rear shock spring? --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on April 16, 2015, 08:31:14 PM
The spring is easy enough to remove - I made a version of the DIY spring compressor I found here www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpZyddxVARc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpZyddxVARc)

Stupid me - I hand brushed it with white enamel enamel - not a great finish and it didn't hold up to use and ended up looking worse.
I'll powdercoat next time round, .

 
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: dingleberry on April 18, 2015, 02:34:03 AM
I would think a new spring would be a better alternative but I suppose they can't be obtained any more. Old springs get weak after many years I seem to remember reading. It would be cool to get an aftermarket spring rated to individual's weight but probably not possible. But I wonder if a spring maker would take on a job like that? Or even just resetting/heat treating?
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on April 18, 2015, 09:36:59 PM
I'm using a rear shock from a Yamaha R1 -- I believe it's a 2004. A little shorter than the stock shock, but I may do a welding trick on the swing arm mount to get it back to "normal" length. Anyway, it looks light years better than the Vision shock and is more adjustable. I may try "painting" the spring with rubberized paint used for tool handles. --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on April 19, 2015, 03:18:45 AM
Probably the same shock as I've got http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=13508.msg132489#msg132489 (http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=13508.msg132489#msg132489).  So far I haven't worried about the height, just dropped the front to match.   Looks really nice with the canister, but the yellow spring has to go.  Racetech do half a dozen different shock springs for the R1 - about $US125 each.  Probably in Racetech yellow though - like the retarded cousin from the country, they don't talk about it.
 
What did you do for the bushings?  I'm not entirely happy with mine.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: dingleberry on April 20, 2015, 04:25:16 AM
I'm proud of the yellow spring on my Speed3's Ohlins  8)
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on May 21, 2015, 11:32:53 AM
OK. The tank fabrication is not going so well.

In the beginning of May I contacted the fabricator. The tank was not done. Not even close as it turned out. We had a conversation and he sent me the tunnel of the tank. Wanted me to take measurements on the frame and send those and the tunnel back to him. Said it was OK if I had someone else complete the fabrication. (Not what I wanted to hear).

Thought it would be better if I shaped a tank out of foam so there's no question on what I want. So that's what I did. Now, will I return the "dummy" and the tunnel to the fabricator for completion? Not sure. Hipster indifference bothers me. I'm going to call a local fabricator and get his thoughts.

The images show where I am. The first is of my first attempt. Thought it was too bulbous and it was a little too long. Shaved off a considerable amount from the back "slant" (next image) and I like it much better. The third image is the reshaped tank. My wife calls it the Turkey Broiler. Hah! She has a point.

The final image is the photoshopped version I created and the look I'm sticking too, as best I can. BTW, I Bondo-ed the "tank" and painted it with primer to get a better idea of the shape. --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on May 21, 2015, 03:10:00 PM
Steve, that looks really good, but I can see why your guy is reluctant - it's a pretty complex shape.  No clipon cutouts - are you sure you have enough clearance at full lock ?



You haven't said if you are getting it done in steel or alloy...What about fibreglass and DIY it?  There's some pics of a red tank done in glass somewhere on the forum.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on May 21, 2015, 04:06:21 PM
I would prefer aluminum. Won't have to worry about rust or even painting it. Just polish it every now and then. --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: fret not on May 22, 2015, 01:13:13 AM
From one who has had a couple aluminum tanks, it tends to get "dirty" smudges on everything.  The aluminum oxide leaves a gray smudge on black leathers, and anything else that rubs against it.  Easily solved by painting with a durable finish.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on May 22, 2015, 09:13:09 AM
Thanks, Fret. I'll consider that.

Can the aluminum tanks be clear-coated? Oh wait, I hate that! Aluminum always yellows under a clear coat.

I'll figure something out. 

If this works out I'll have a stock tank for sale that's immaculate on the inside. Outside...not so much.  --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: Rikugun on May 22, 2015, 10:29:23 AM
QuoteIf this works out I'll have a stock tank for sale that's immaculate on the inside. Outside...not so much.
When that day comes I might be interested. I'll PM with my email addy.

Sorry to hear the fabricator is flaking out. I do like the shape and how It works with the tail section.

I found pics of the tank POD referenced. The shape is fairly faithful to the original albeit wider for more capacity. It may have gone through different cosmetic changes. In the first, there is a clear-ish section at the front of the knee relief where fuel level can be observed? I didn't save a link to the thread - does anyone recall the member's name? Found it:
http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=8027.0 (http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=8027.0)
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on May 22, 2015, 03:24:16 PM
That looks like a pretty amazing fiberglass job. Doubt I have the chops to pull it off. I'm actually more impressed with the muffler! --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on May 22, 2015, 05:04:41 PM
Quote from: turbosteve84 on May 22, 2015, 09:13:09 AM
Aluminum always yellows under a clear coat.
It's the clear coat that yellows, but these days there are plenty of non-yellowing clears around.
Por 15 Glisten PC (http://www.por15.com/Glisten-PC-High-Performance-Clear-Coat_ep_75.html) for instance


Quote from: turbosteve84 on May 22, 2015, 03:24:16 PM
Doubt I have the chops to pull it off.
Bondo / Resin it's the same dealIf you can do a job like you did on the foam tank you could do glass.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: dingleberry on May 23, 2015, 12:23:12 AM
A bike like the above one needs Renthal ultra lows on it I think. I agree with POD, you'll handle fiberglass just fine. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on June 27, 2015, 10:51:18 AM
Got the rear cowl painted yesterday by a local bike builder/rebuilder. Urethane paint with clear coat. This guys works in his back yard, talks to you as he's painting, and does incredible work. I had shaped the piece, bondo-ed, primed and sanded it -- all the prep work.

Actually had it ready for paint last week, but decided to shave it down an inch or so from the back to front to get the proper angle once it's mounted to the bike. Had to reposition my three-point mounting system so it was quite a bit of re-work. But I'm happy the the results and waiting for the tank to be completed so I can move on to the seat fabrication.

I'll let the cowl dry for a week, sand and compound it, and bring it back to the painter for the final coat of clear. --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on July 04, 2015, 10:17:24 AM
POD,

Sorry, never answered your inquiry about the shock bushings.

I drilled out the lower one, like you did. For the top I was "lucky" that the R1 unit I bought did not have a bushing in it. I just went to Sears Hardware and found a suitable bushing and washer arrangement.

But I'm not happy with the setup on either end. I don't think they'll last very long. What I want to do is press out the old bushings from the stock shock and install them on the R1 shock. Just gotta find someone who has the press, skill and patience to do this.

Below are a couple of photos of my tank fabrication.   --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on July 05, 2015, 07:03:15 AM
From many Youtube videos it looks like new bearings will press in/out with nothing but a vice.  The hard part will be finding suitable bearings - especially in this country.  If you find anything to suit the R1 on the XZ let me know.


Tank's looking good so far.

Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on August 16, 2015, 09:05:38 AM
I know, I know. I was expecting this Vision café racer to be doing some café racing by now, but we've got Trouble right here in River City, with a capital "T" and that rhymes with -- well, "T," -- and that stands for TANK. My fabricator had loads of trouble welding up the shape I wanted. When he did the grinding on the welds he got holes. Lot of 'em. Long story short, the fuel tank is probably unusable as it is. I'm not happy. He's promising me a new tank done up with thicker aluminum. The question is when.

Good news is the tail is buffed, polished and FINISHED. The painter, who worked pro bono, had loads of trouble himself with fisheyes in the clear coat. I sanded for hours to remove them. Now with the holy tank and tail in hand I can at least measure for the seat pan and get that rolling. The frame with be painted by me if the humidity here in the Northeast, U.S., cooperates (hottest time of year right now). All other pieces are painted and/or polished and ready for assembly. Electrics, I'm sure, will be another hurdle.

A couple of images are attached. --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: Rikugun on August 16, 2015, 06:42:51 PM
Sorry to hear about the tank problems but if you do end up with a custom aluminum tank you'll be the envy of the ROV!  :D
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on August 17, 2015, 06:56:34 AM
Quote from: turbosteve84 on August 16, 2015, 09:05:38 AM
My fabricator had loads of trouble welding up the shape I wanted. When he did the grinding on the welds he got holes. Lot of 'em. Long story short, the fuel tank is probably unusable as it is. I'm not happy. He's promising me a new tank done up with thicker aluminum. The question is when.
Couldn't he just re-weld - perhaps on both sides? Or outsource the welding to someone more experienced?  Most tanks I've seen are 1.6mm or 1.8mm.  Thicker than that must be pretty hard to shape.

Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on August 19, 2015, 11:32:46 AM
I hear you. On my way now to the guy who welded the rear frame hoop.

Tank fabricator says it's getting too thin around the welds where the aluminum is bent, or stretched to make those top curves. When he welds the aluminum collapses. I believe he used .060 gauge material (?). He says he's going to make me a new tank with thicker aluminum. We shall see. --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: cvincer on August 19, 2015, 07:54:33 PM
Can silver solder be applied to aluminium ?    Silver solder melts at 450C & aluminium at 660C  ........ silver solder is a different animal to the solder used in electrical connections.

(Don't confuse with silver braze or silver braze alloy which melts at  +1000C depending on % of silver content ........but anyway the $ value of the braze alloy silver content would be worth many times the $ value of the tank).

Or you could try this:-         http://www.aluminumrepair.com/aluminum-repair/
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on August 19, 2015, 08:57:41 PM
My welder guy is reluctant to touch it. I do have some aluminum rod that melts at about 650 degrees F. I think I'll try that. --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on August 19, 2015, 09:02:47 PM
There are aluminium brazing products - HTS2000, Durafix, Ideal720  They are pretty good, and the joy of them is you can do joining with nothing but a propane torch.  They are very strong for lap joints, great for filling holes.


They are not great for butt joints on sheet.  They are weak and when you heat it up to do your second seam the previous seam melts :-(


There's a reason why none of the brazing rod demos show people building tanks with them.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on August 19, 2015, 09:03:50 PM
Oh and once you've put brazing rod on, you can forget about welding it.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on August 29, 2015, 01:15:00 PM
OK, got the engine in the frame to see how the tank fits. A sharp eye can see the rear mount is not touching the frame. Tank needs to be gelded more to clear the airbox.

My tank guy (background in photo) will do the modification AND build me another tank. This one has too many issues. Still, I'm going to hang on to it. Bought Caswell liner for both tanks. Since I'm getting another tank we're going make a few mods so it looks more like the one I photoshopped.

I'm frustrated with the slow progress but very excited about the look. TANK - ENGINE - TAIL! Those are the keys. My tank guy even wants to buy a Vision so HE can make a Visioné café racer for himself! Anyone in the Northeast US got one for sale?

Here's the real reason for this post: The stock tank (see image) is gelded just below the front mounts. Why? What are those cavities there for? I thought maybe for the radiator, but no, I mounted the rad and it clears the fabricated tank easily. Anyone know? The reason I ask is because the fabricated tank does not have those cavities and I don't think they're needed.  --Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: pinholenz on September 11, 2015, 04:57:06 AM
I had always guessed that the shaping on the underbelly of the tank was to ensure adequate airflow over the air filter housing. If the tank sat down too tight on the housing, it could be possible that negative air pressure built up around the air intake to the carbs. Its only a guess though.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: NITROPOLIS on September 11, 2015, 03:39:19 PM
Just read your thread from start to finish. Great job! As with the interference between the tank and air box, I think, "IMHO", before your fabricator makes that second tank. Why don't you mock up the bike a bit more. Forks and bars along with the first built tank. Just to make sure there are no interference issues. For instance, between the tank and the bars, or anything else. I would hate to see a second tank made and realize, "Houston, we have a problem."
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on April 23, 2016, 10:13:22 AM
OK, I swore I wouldn't post anything here about my Visioné Café Racer project until it was COMPLETELY finished. But it's raining here right now so I decided to have some fun.

Here's the bike, completely assembled. Still waiting for my electrics guy to come over and hook everything up. And the tank needs to be internally sealed (Red Coat) and surface finished. Once it's a running, fully operational bike, I'll make a video and post it on YouTube.

Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: cobol74 on April 23, 2016, 10:33:37 AM
Nice exhaust system, could you give some details about it ?
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on April 23, 2016, 11:29:52 AM
It's from an Italian company called Marving. Got it through Mad4Exhausts. Just the mufflers -- the pipes are stock. The chrome finish on the mufflers is very nice. The workmanship -- well, it is Italian. Mad4Exhausts had the best combination of price and shipping cost. I think the total came to about $450 with shipping to the US. I bought it when the exchange rate was close to one US dollar per Euro.

They slipped on rather easily and fit well. No issues, except the cross pipe is very close to the rear tire.

Steve
Title: I too likevthe exhaust and
Post by: Rikugun on April 23, 2016, 01:53:43 PM
Steve, looks really good! I too like the exhaust. I haven't heard of that brand so looked it up. Apparently they're on sale now 351 euro...

http://www.mad4exhausts.com/en/yamaha-moto-epoca/66966-marving-y-2078-bc-yamaha-xz-550-cardano.html (http://www.mad4exhausts.com/en/yamaha-moto-epoca/66966-marving-y-2078-bc-yamaha-xz-550-cardano.html)
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on April 23, 2016, 02:16:50 PM
Thanks, Riku.

Yeah, that price sounds about right (no pun intended). Just found my receipt and it was 392 Euros with shipping. Can't wait to hear this bitch sing. Where the hell is my electrics guy?

Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on April 23, 2016, 07:24:28 PM
Very very cool. I don't know why you don't want to post progress.  I love seeing details - the more the better.  Painting the radiator overflow black - genius but so obvious now it's done. Why didn't I think of that it would have saved weeks.


Shouldn't it be visione cinque centocinquanta?
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on April 23, 2016, 09:14:26 PM
I wanted to wait until the bike was operational, and then make a detailed video on everything I did to create it. I'm still going to make that video so everyone can see the parts I fabricated, where I hid the electronics, and other details. Until then I'll answer any questions anyone might have.

Yes, cinque centocinquanta is the translation for five hundred and fifty. But we say "five-fifty," right? (no one says "nice five hundred and fifty") so I fudged it a little.

Anyway, I already tagged the bike with this laser imprint so I'm sticking with it! (Gotta get some some new phillips screws).

Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: pinholenz on April 24, 2016, 12:22:23 AM
Whatever you call it, it look GREAT. I hope that it all runs well.

I know I am majoring on the minor, but will you be putting mirrors on?

Congratulations so far. Looking forward to that video
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on April 24, 2016, 10:13:13 AM
Thanks, Pin.

Yes, eventually mirrors will sprout. Probably some bar ends. I had wanted to install clip-ons -- actually bought a pair -- but when I put everything together I liked the riding position with the '83 bar risers and felt the clip-ons might be too severe. I'm not getting any younger.

Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on May 25, 2016, 09:24:41 PM
After much blood, sweat and tears (and an instruction manual with a BIG error in it) Backroad Bob Miller got my Motogadget gauge to function. Check out the video.

http://saddlebums.tumblr.com

Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: Rikugun on May 26, 2016, 02:15:04 PM
Well that looks real nice. And it works too!
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on June 10, 2016, 08:53:21 PM
Saddle Bums Vomag Plauen Garage Visioné 550 Cinque Cinquanto Café Racer first start up...

https://youtu.be/wlqACrfFmYY

Man, those carbs need a lot of priming! Hope it starts tomorrow.

Have a significant oil leak coming from the stator cover (left side). New gasket, plenty of Suzuki Bond, but still a leak.

Any suggestions for when I go in there and change out the gasket?

Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: fret not on June 11, 2016, 01:00:46 AM
The most common leak site is the grommets where the wires come between the case and the cover.  The grommets should be pushed back a bit and the wires cleaned, then doped with sealant like 3 bond (Yamabond, HondaBond, Suzuki Bond, etc.) and then slid back in place quickly before the sealant dries. 
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: Walt_M. on June 11, 2016, 05:35:43 AM
Sure hope you didn't redcoat that tank. If you did, stay away from ethanol fuel. It can seriously f-up the carburetors. Good looking bike.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: b_racuda on June 11, 2016, 07:14:07 AM
Nice looking speedo! Just to be curious, where the speedo is reading the rpms? I mean where did you connect the wire?
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on June 11, 2016, 09:58:13 AM
Yes! It's Red Koted. Highly recommended by Kevin Dunworth of Loaded Gun Customs. Can says to stay away from certain fuel additives. Forgot which ones.

RPM pickup is attached to the front cylinder spark plug lead. I slit the insulator cover and slipped in the pickup. Some fine tuning, ahem, will be required. I have a lot of programming to do on the motogadget. But first I need to take care of that oil leak. It's leaking toward the back of the cover, not where the stator wires are grouped.

Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: Walt_M. on June 11, 2016, 11:19:57 AM
I guess it did take about 8 years for the ethanol gas to dissolve the redkote and screw up the carburetors but it did happen.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: Rikugun on June 11, 2016, 05:17:56 PM
In fairness, Red Kote may not be aware of the long tern effects of their product in the presence of ethanol blende fuels.

There is also the possibility they do know but feel confident you'll have a different bike in 8 years.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on June 11, 2016, 09:49:00 PM
Oops! The back of the cover, of course, IS where the wires exit. So that's where the leak is. Replaced the gasket this afternoon. Will start it up tomorrow to check for leaks.

I'll check with Kevin Dunworth about the effects of ethanol fuel on Red Kote. Fuels change and so do fuel tank coatings. Hard to believe the makers of Red Kote are using the same formula they used eight years ago.

Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on June 11, 2016, 09:54:59 PM
Did some research on Red Kote. Here's what they say...

http://www.damonq.com/techsheets/red-kote.pdf

And about ethanol specifically...

Ethanol. Red-Kote works fine with E10 to E50 mixtures (10% to 50% ethanol). Red-Kote generally has performed well in long- term E85 testing. E85 can be anywhere from 51% to 85% ethanol depending on the manufacturer, county and time of year. Long- term testing with E95 shows some deterioration of the Red-Kote. We don't recommend higher than E85 mixtures or E100, 100% ethanol.

Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: QBS on June 11, 2016, 11:04:10 PM
Wonder how a Red Coated tank would do if coated over with POR 15?
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: Rikugun on June 12, 2016, 08:48:25 AM
Does it indicate how long "long term" testing is?

I remember the same was said of Kreem when ethanol fuels came on the market. They eventually reformulated their coating but I never followed up with how successful it was.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on October 03, 2016, 11:01:33 AM
I've finally posted a video on my Vision Café Racer build, including fabrication details and some road test footage...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r2BZMTnIZk

Yesterday the Visioné as I call it, took the third place award at the Bikes and Breakfast meet up season finale at the 9W Market in Palisades, NY. Most reactions have been positive. I'm still "tuning" the carbs, but I guess that will be an ongoing endeavor.

It's been fun riding this thing around the Hudson Valley. Lots of torque, great sound, but maybe not my first choice for tackling the NJ Turnpike. The lightness of the steering is uncanny. Low weight and a trailing-axle fork get the credit no doubt, but I'll probably go to a more modern fork and brakes from some 600cc sport bike sometime in the future.

Right now I'm just enjoying riding the bike as long as autumn holds out.

Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: Walt_M. on October 04, 2016, 06:35:16 AM
That is a great looking bike. Sorry to hear of your carburetion troubles but you didn't show much carb stuff on your build. The stock carbs have always been more than a little finicky. They can be made to work well but everything has to be just SO. One thing you do need for the stock carbs is the stock airbox with the vacuum flapper. What setup are you using?
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: Rikugun on October 04, 2016, 08:05:24 AM
Having subscribed to the channel, I happened to see the video last night - very cool. Thanks for creating the vid, it's an interesting build and fun to see what went into it.

I'm not sure what the carb issue is but in my (limited) XZ experience, once they're thoroughly cleaned and de-bugged they're good to go. Just don't let the bike sit with gas in the bowls.

On the brake issue, I did a limited mod on my Silver '82 that has helped. It is supposed to be stage 1 of a more involved setup like my first XZ but it hasn't got there yet. Anywho, it involves swapping the master only with an 11 mm unit which made a noticeable difference. I've been meaning to post a picture and my findings so maybe soon.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on October 04, 2016, 09:26:49 AM
Thank for the replies.

The carb issue is the typical stumble when the engine is hot. I've dialed most of it out by lengthening the accelerator pump rod, but it's not totally gone. And the idle can vary between approx. 1500 and just below 1000 rpm. Both are not big problems -- I can live with them. I haven't done a dynamic carb balance yet, so that might help. Yes, I have the upgraded airbox with vacuum flapper.

The front brake just feels wooden. Like I wrote, I'm planning on doing an entire front end swap in the future, so I'm not concerned with it. Just riding it and enjoying the puzzled look on the faces of other riders I meet. Some guy with "YAMAHA" emblazoned across his leather jacket, wearing a Yamaha T-shirt under it, and riding an R1 asked me what kind of bike it was. When I told him it was a Vision he said he never heard of it.

Steve
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: The Prophet of Doom on October 05, 2016, 02:23:52 PM
Very nice, and a well deserved win
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: Dean on October 05, 2016, 09:27:00 PM
WOW! Very Nice...

The video is a nice touch for the finished product.
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: cvincer on October 06, 2016, 12:22:38 AM

A great result (I envy you your talents & perseverance) ........ the video was quite something, especially liked the 'promo' shots

of the bike particularly (if memory serves) where the back ground had the Michelangelo (?) fresco of God & Moses (?) touching

fingers, sort of symbolizing the birth of the    "Visione 550 Cinque Cinquanta".
Title: Re: Visioné Café Racer update
Post by: turbosteve84 on October 06, 2016, 05:52:24 PM
Thanks for all the compliments.

Believe it or not, that mural was right here in my New Jersey home town. Not many people see it because the wall faces south and traffic on the road only runs south. I enhanced the colors on the wall a little -- it's fading and will probably be almost gone in about five years. It worked out nice since I'm jokingly trying to pass this off as an Italian motorcycle. Looking for a Ferrari radiator cap now. Found one on eBay, but I'm not sure it's going to fit. I like the "APRIRE LENTAMENTE" inscribed on top ("OPEN SLOWLY").

Steve