Hi.
I am back in the Vision game.
My first experience with this cool bike was in 1983. I had a High School friend who had one and wanted to sell it. So he let me have it for a few days. At the time I had a DT175 as my daily rider. I was also putting some miles on my dads Venture 1200. Needless to say this bike was a revelation compared to my wimpy ride and my dads monster. I fell in love with its light agile behavior and its torquie twin. I even took my mother for a ride on it. She said it was way more fun than the Venture.
Unfortunately it also had a large glob of JB weld on its case that wasn't keeping the oil in as well as you might hope. So I took a pass, but the impression was made.
Jump forward to 1991, I was in a Ducati dealership, drooling over bikes I could not afford, when I spied a Vision gathering dust in a back corner. I asked about it, $900 later and it was mine. It was a 82' with the standard hesitation. I was able to adjust the flapper in the airbox to mitigate it somewhat. (pre internet solution).
I moved to a small town in southern Nevada 1994. After letting a couple friends ride it they both ended up with them as well. Mine developed a refusal to start when hot, (stater i think),I sold it in 1998 to buy something more dirt oriented to fit the area.
One of the friends who bought a really beat up one took it out to his farm and did a variety of unspeakable things to it.
GPz 550 front end, Open pipe exhaust, and a big old Knobby tire on the back.
He road it all over the farm that way until 2001 when it developed the starter clutch problem. He then parked it in the barn until 6 months ago. He is moving and asked me if I wanted it.
Its rough, but how could I say no.
I don't know if it is worth the time to tear it down, but I have an emotional connection and would like to do it. I don't even know if there is a need for the parts if I decided it was too far gone.
I hope there is still a few of us left that love this old bike.
First off, welcome to the forum. As you can see, you have quite a project in front of you. You have to decide for yourself if you want to take it on. You will find plenty of support here but no unreasonable expectations. Probably the first thing to do is determine if the engine is sound and proceed from there.
Welcome to the Group. It sounds like your background is a good fit for the V, and that includes the very important emotional component. Suggest you get a Haynes manual asap and start from there. There are some really knowledgeable owners here and most of the V issues have been IDed'. We are here to help you.
Thanks guys. I'm glad that this forum is still active. That plays a big part in deciding what to do with this XZ.
I understand that money wise it is a bad idea. That isn't the point. But I also can't afford a money pit. So I think the break point may be in the $500 worth of parts range.
I'm pretty comfortable with a wrench and have quite a bit of free time to put into it. And I love a project.
Welcome to the forum and oh boy do you have some work ahead of you!
I've seen old street bikes relegated to farm use before and generally they're fairly used up by then. The next step is a weathered derelict hulk left in the weeds at the edge of a field where it expired. You found yours just prior to that stage. Or, it expired in the barn and the owner had not the energy to push it to the edge of a field to abandon it. Hopefully this is coming across as merely wry rather than mean spirited! :D
The good news is these bikes are still out there and if you find a non-runner, often can be had for next to nothing. This also addresses your question regarding stripping it down for parts. I admire your passion for the bike but don't invest too much time if it's a lost cause. You can find a "project" Vision with an easier starting point. Either way, I hope you stick around for a while.
P.S. I like the last air-cooled generation GPz 550 front end on your bike. That looks like a very interesting addition. I'm very curious how that would affect certain handling quirks.
The previous owner told me that it was running, and carbureting, well when it got parked.
I remember when he first put the GPz front end on. He did it for the duel disks. But he told me that he felt like the steering was quicker. The anti dive system also changed behavior some.
Is the engine free, does the crankshaft rotate?
Do the forks hit the tank when the bars are turned to full lock?
From my perspective much depends on how much challenge you are willing to accept. There is much you can do without spending big money, but there will likely be some things you will need to spend money on, and it may go a bit over your set budget. The sky is the limit and it is then up to you to keep the expense to a minimum.
Another aspect is whether you are interested in making a "custom" or doing more of a restoration. Either way the bike needs to be taken apart to be totally cleaned and maybe painted before reassembly. You will have lots of time to ponder your potential goals, and likely change your mind a time or three before you are done.
Make it run, but before that I suggest you go through the process of fixing the starter clutch and starter motor. You are will get an education in the process of going through this bike, and that will serve you well for many years to come. I think most of the information you will need is here somewhere. Good luck with this inspiration, and may it turn out better than you expect. Seriously.
Quote from: Rikugun on June 27, 2016, 03:55:31 PM
Do the forks hit the tank when the bars are turned to full lock?
Nope, clearance is good. As far as the GPz front end is concerned I am more concerned about the breaks master cylinder having the volume to drive the extra caliper and anti dive system.
My buddy who put it on there claimed it worked fine, but he was know to have a farmers definition of "fine". (which sometimes means, "I didn't die doing it")
Quote from: QBS on June 27, 2016, 03:36:11 PM
Is the engine free, does the crankshaft rotate?
Haven't checked yet. The transmission is free and shifts. Found that out rolling it into the trailer. I will put a couple squirts of oil down the plug holes and let it sit for a while before I try and move the pistons.
The climate down here in southern Nevada is extremely dry. Rust just isn't an issue. On the other hand, the heat plays havoc on plastic and rubber.
I just finished bring back a 1987 TW200 that had sat on a shed for 11 years. The heat bakes all of the seals to rock. Payed $500, Just over $300 in parts, I don't count time spent since I see it as therapy. If you haven't ridden Yamahas little TW clown bike you owe it to yourself to give it a try. It really is a minibike for grown ups.
QuoteAs far as the GPz front end is concerned I am more concerned about the breaks master cylinder having the volume to drive the extra caliper and anti dive system.
I assumed it had the Kawasaki 5/8" master since it has the Kawasaki calipers. Look for either "1/2" or "5/8" cast on the outside of the master. Sometimes it's underneath but usually near the outlet or the area where the piston travels.
If it has the XZ 1/2" master it will result in a squishy lever but
very good hydraulic advantage - too much really. Compatible 5/8" masters are plentiful and cheap on E-bay.
EDIT Upon closer inspection of your pictures, it does not look like the GPz master.
QuoteIf you haven't ridden Yamahas little TW clown bike you owe it to yourself to give it a try. It really is a minibike for grown ups.
Yamaha's answer to Honda's "Fat Cat". :) I wonder how much the Rokon influenced the styling of both.
I think you are right. I just assumed that he slid the fork tubes into the Yamaha triple clamps. But it looks like the clamps and bars are all Kawasaki. I'm surprized that the races and bearing would matchup. I guess that explains why the gauges were in a box.
Chris, check the steering bearings to see if they are the original type of loose balls, or the tapered roller type. You really need the tapered roller type, and they are not very expensive.
Great looking project.
The purists here seem to like to rip everything down and rebuilt it with new parts and a glossy paint job. That's fine but it can be a long time before you get any pleasure out of actually riding the bike.
An alternative is do the bare minimum to get it running well and not worry how it looks. Enjoy the ride and solving the problems as they come. Then, if you must, rip it down and return it to concours condition confident that there will be no nasty surprises that you have to pour money into to justify the rest of the money you have already invested.
Just a thought
QuoteI think you are right. I just assumed that he slid the fork tubes into the Yamaha triple clamps. But it looks like the clamps and bars are all Kawasaki.
Yes - triples, forks and handlebars are A model GPz. Switchgear, brake master, clutch perch, and headlight are Vision. The more I look at this the more I want to swap my Vision's front end.
Quote from: Rikugun on June 27, 2016, 03:55:31 PM
Do the forks hit the tank when the bars are turned to full lock?
I was moving the bike around the shop and noticed that the choke lever just touches the top of the tank at full left lock. I think I can adjust the bars or switch gear to clear, but, this brings up another issue.
Utah came through and gave me a title to the 1986 XL600R project that I have been sitting on for about a year. It was about half disassembled with the intent of parting it out since it was a barn parts bike. But with a shiny new title in hand it is going to get the rebuild it deserves.
Hence the Vision got moved to the waiting area of the shop space. It will get a little love when I'm waiting for parts and such, but sorry old girl I'm taking Honda to the prom.
I feel like such a two timer.
That actually makes good sense. Your Vision was going to be quite the project just to find out if it would even be worth starting. Good luck with the XL.
From a very selfish perspective I'm a little bummed. I am curious about the GPz front end and how it affects handling and ride quality. On a related note, I looked at All Balls Racing's fork conversion charts the other day. It seems the models joined here may not be compatible bearing/race wise. This of course raised more questions that won't be soon answered. Woe is me. :)
Good luck with the Honda BTW. :D
The Vision isn't dead just yet. It is just getting lower priority. Once i get the XL head sent off and the frame welded up I will have a little time for the XZ.
First thing will be to get it cleaned up some and the starter off for a look see.
Well, regardless of the project, keep posting. I like seeing your avatar. That knobby tire on the Vision is bitchin'. :)
With the Xl frame off to the welders, and assorted parts all in various stages of shipping I decided to give the old Vision a little love.
Time to start cleaning 10+ years of barn dirt and grime off. Get a look at just how good or bad it is.
After seeing pinholtz's mod
Which to my eyes may be one of the most beautiful bikes ever built. I would love to do something along those lines.
So here is what I have after some general cleaning
(//)
The Good
It all seems to be there. Nothing major missing, if you count the mismatched front end.
The Ugly
The GPz 550 front end. The lower bearings in the steering head are trash or they never quite fit. The triple clamp has about 1/8 inch of shift in the frame.
Spark plugs are nowhere to be seen. Which surely means a bunch of dirt down the cylinders.
There is orange Silicon gasket maker squeezing out of all the case seams. Never a good sign.
Air filter foam crumbled in my hands
Interesting extra plug added to the bottom of the tank. Humm.. crud drain?
Not really committed yet but its good to have a closer look.
QuoteThe GPz 550 front end. The lower bearings in the steering head are trash or they never quite fit. The triple clamp has about 1/8 inch of shift in the frame.
I wondered about the GPz vs. XZ bearing fit - see my July 9 comment on page 1.
That filter doesn't look original or it's been modified. I don't think the pleated paper stockers are available new but UNI and K&N still have offerings.
The tank fitting is interesting. It looks to be at the low spot so a drain of sorts maybe? Out of curiosity can you tell how it's attached - tig, mig, gas weld, braze, glue?
Quote from: Rikugun on July 17, 2016, 11:39:29 AM
QuoteThe GPz 550 front end. The lower bearings in the steering head are trash or they never quite fit. The triple clamp has about 1/8 inch of shift in the frame.
I wondered about the GPz vs. XZ bearing fit - see my July 9 comment on page 1.
That filter doesn't look original or it's been modified. I don't think the pleated paper stockers are available new but UNI and K&N still have offerings.
The tank fitting is interesting. It looks to be at the low spot so a drain of sorts maybe? Out of curiosity can you tell how it's attached - tig, mig, gas weld, braze, glue?
I think the filter was a Uni style. The foam layer that held the top and bottom halves together was the part that disintegrated. The bottom half was siliconed down to the box. I'm not to worried about that just yet. After reading the 83 mods thread I would love to update the carbs with some better sorted more modern down drafts. That would likely require velocity stacks and some sort of pods. Tank and space will be the main issue there.
The extra drain plug was brazed in. I am trying to remember if there was a crossover tube from the right and left side of the tank. With out one, how much fuel is left on the right side. I wonder if this was an attempt to add another petcock, or maybe a crossover tube. My old BMW has petcocks on both sides, give me essentially first reserve and then second reserve.
My biggest concern right now is the motor. This is a windy, dusty, sandy environment. if those spark plugs have been out for 10+ years, the cylinders are going to have a ton of sand and silt down them. At the minimun the heads are going to have to come off. I would feel better with a complete disassembly and cleaning out of the motor. I don't really mind that, but it might mean finding some old scarce parts. Is there a good source for gasket kits?
You might try Cometic, they had them at one time.
I don't think the base gaskets were too expensive but the head gaskets were. Here's some info on the company Walt mentioned for copper head gaskets that are reasonable:
http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=14338.0 (http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=14338.0) Thanks to Jimustanguitar for that one.
Regarding the dusty environment the bike was used in - another thing to consider is the fit of the filter in the airbox. This is a good thing for any Visionary to check. I had the air box off of my latest acquisition (Silver Vision) and noticed something troubling. The filter does not fit snug within the box allowing it to shift around and not seal well. From either of the fittings for the air horn you can reach in and easily move it about.
I retrieved a spare box and the same thing. The filters were both beat OEM's with tired sealing foam making them shorter than when new so I thought that was the issue. I tried my newish Uni Filter and the same thing. Interestingly, the Uni Filter has a much thicker band of foam where it seals against the box but the filter assembly is shorter making the overall height identical to the stock part. After a slight mod to the inside of the lid the filter now fits snug.
That may be why the previous owner had the filter RTV siliconed down to the bottom half of the box.
Thanks for the links.
Hi Chris ,
Welcome to the forum , that's quite a project you have . It looks much better in the last photo's as it looks like it has been washed up. I remember seeing Ron McCoy's Vision at the 25th Reunion in Colorado and it had some sort of a Suzuki front end on it ,can't remember if it had an Anti dive set up or not . He said it worked well. He visits the site once in a while and may be able to give you some insight.
Back around 2004 or 5 I had a new Uni Filter installed on the Vision and after a spirited ride out to Coderington the bike would not come back to idle it kept revving at 2500 rpm. I found that the foam near the lower part of the filter had detached it self and was stuck in the throttle plates . I sent this back to Unifilter and explained what had happened and they sent me a new revised style of Unifilter for the bike. Just be aware there are old and new styles.
Anyhow have fun with it and it is good Therapy !
Cheers Ken S
The notion of a center axle fork swap was touched upon in my "Silver Vision" thread. I thought it may have been tried but didn't know of any specific examples. It's good to know it has been done and the owner is still alive after altering the stock steering geometry.
Thanks also for the heads-up on Uni filters. I'm running one but the newer installation hopefully means it is the updated design. Something to be on the lookout for when it's serviced.
Those forks were from a 1982 katana. I used the katana lower triple clamp and the vision upper triple clamp and angle bored them (fork tubes at a steeper angle than the steering head) to get the same trail as stock at the static sag of the forks with rider aboard. This worked quite well and the improvement in fork lateral stability and lack of flex under hard braking and on rough roads was well worth the effort involved with the modification. There was still the tendency to waggle the forks when taking your hands off the bars and Visionmeister said he felt an instability on turn in when he rode it. The bike now has Kawasaki zr6 forks on it . I built my own triple clamps this time. And cut the trail back to just under 4 inches. This seems a to be a better solution than the stock geometry. I live in an area with an abundance of twisty roads so handling is very important to me. I think any of the CROV guys will verify that my vision works very well. It helps to be a machinist or have the services of one when doing these types of modifications.
By the way, allballsracing.com has a chart that gives bearings for practically any fork swap you can think of. They have the bearings and conversion kits too.
I was at the 25th anniversary celebration. Ron McCoy's bike was the most trick and beautiful V I had ever seen. Absolutely wonderfully done. Ron is quite the constructor and a really nice guy. It's good to see that he keeps in touch and still has his V.
Good info.
The more I stare at this bike the more I think about going down the full on mod rabbit hole.
To my eyes the motor is a thing of unmatched moto beauty. The rest of the bike is just OK. The front a little better, the back end bodywork a little worse.
As it is right now, I stare at it most every day as I work on the XL. I think about clean lines and how I could remove clutter and the "heavy looking" tail.
For now it is still just stare and think.
Thanks for the info Ron. I was just reading about raked triple clamps in the Chopper Builders Handbook http://chopperhandbook.com/rake.htm (http://chopperhandbook.com/rake.htm) They warn about "negative trail" as used in stretching but I'm guessing you went the other way.
The All Balls fork conversion chart is a good resource. I mentioned it on page one of this thread but didn't supply a link.
http://www.allballsracing.com/index.php/forkconversion (http://www.allballsracing.com/index.php/forkconversion)
Thanks for the compliments Bob. Hope you and Cathy are doing well.
You're welcome Ron. Kathy and I might be in the general NorCal/Pacific Northwest area in year or so.
Baby steps.
Gasket kit took 15 days to arrive from the friendly north. But it is finally here. Started to reassemble the engine and the second ring was jammed. broke it trying to get it free, (dang) Looks like these rings and cylinder is .5 over. Fortunately Honda still has them available.
I think this was not done too long ago. Cylinder still has hone marks.
I think they may have put the wrong banjo bolt in on the oil feed line to the head when this was done, since the top bolt had a much larger oil hole than the lower one. That may be the reason the head was oil starved and broke the camshaft. Honda also had the correct cylinder head bolt replacement for the snapped one.
Unfortunately the eBay cylinder head failed the valve leak test. Both intake and exhaust valves had minor leaks. So Head is off to "FASTHEADS" for a valve job.
Meantime, engine is back together save the cylinder head. Electrical and accessories are back on the frame.
Engine (-minus head) is on the table in the background.
It's better to re-ring it if you do a valve job so perhaps it was just the universe working out the details. :)
Remember, every bit of progress gets you closer to my goal - that being your attention then turning to the XZ. 8)