Just bought this one sight unseen over the interweb.
Unsurprising it's an Australasian version XZ550R 16R.
I wonder what wifey will say when she gets home?
Details? Year, mileage?
Hope she likes red. :police: :angel:
So Iain and I picked up the bike yesterday. Well that's what you get when you buy a bike sight unseen. The only good thing about it is that is has live registration (title), and it rolls.
78,000 km and I think every one of them must have been in the rain. There's rust everywhere.
It's a lot worse than it looks in the pictures. The engine has been swapped out for a XZ400 engine. as has some of the switch gear. Tank is in a bad way, and overpainted with what looks like red fence paint and a ton of bog. Every bit of rubber has turned to dust. Stator is shot, starter is shot, battery is dead, doesn't fire
There's nothing for it, I'll have to do a full ground up restoration. That's OK, ever since Bobby "Re-vision" Crabb suggested a full museum quality re-build (http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=15587.msg143392#msg143392) I've been thinking I'd like to be involved. I just didn't think it would be me doing it.
So yeah, anyone willing to donate some new parts or factory quality re-furbished items just send me a message.
That is going to be some project. Are you going to keep the 400 engine or go back to 550?
I happen to have a couple of partially dismantled 550 engines in the garage. I will try and fuse these together to build one.
First order of business on this bike is to sort out the keys. The ignition tumbler had been replaced at some point so didn't match the petrol cap or the seat lock. It was also gummed up with years of crap.
Equipment needed:
10mm socket to remove lock
1 medium JIS Screwdriver
1-2 spare locks (for wafers) and ball-bearings/springs that get lost on the floor
Cleaning solvent
DriGlide Spay
CRC contact Cleaner (for the electric parts)
Access the lock by removing the upper triple tree, and open the headlight to disconnect the wiring.
I pulled the ignition lock and a couple of screws and I had it apart. Once all the obvious bits have been pulled out, the tumbler comes out by pushing a brass spring-loaded tab in towards the centre, then the lock out towards the rider. The lock is a wafer type - it uses sliding wafers rather than pins so it's a lot simpler to re-key (and to pick). Take care though else you will have springs and wafers everywhere. The brass tab is on the same side as the wafers so keep it pointing upwards. A finger on the top as you remove the tumbler stops the wafers in place. There are you tube videos on wafer locks, but none I found with the brass tab. Hondas use circlips instead.
With the key inserted, all the wafers have to align to the body in order to turn. Pulling apart some spare ignition units I found wafers of the right size and swapped them in. Cleaned and sprayed the insides liberally with Dry Glide (Doesn't attract dirt like oil does), and job done.
The only tricky thing in re-assembly was the spring/ball bearing from a small catch. Fitting is not immediately obvious. The way to fit this is to insert the small metal piece without the spring or ball, Align the indent from the hole in the casing, then insert these both from the outside, Spring first. It's locked in place once the metal piece is pushed into position.
All together and looks and operates like new, but with the correct key. The back plastic part was hard and brittle and I broke 2 spares trying to disassemble. I ended giving up on the thought of a thorough clean - instead I flushed quantities of CRC Contact cleaner through the holes to clean up the electrics. Gave the connectors a clean and polish.
Finally, I made a replacement label for the back with the new key number.
Loverly
I have done that. As you know, it is very tedious. Step 1 is, sweep the floor! Good job.
Mostly I've been removing parts one at a time, and either replacing or refinishing them as I go
Now it's time to rip into the engine(s) - I'm trying to build a single 550 engine from my spares as the bike came with a 400cc installed :-(
This was my "best" spare engine. Low km and working well when removed from the bike - or so I was told.
I have always appreciated a truthful seller. Bet that was running really sweet.
Dang, I bet that was noisy.
I realize shipping would be expensive but I have 2 heads, one with valves and springs installed, the other I removed the valves and springs, also shims and buckets but still have them. Have 2 pistons, standard bore and 1 complete set of rings. I could let any or all of it go for $50 US plus shipping.
Thanks Walt. I have a spare head I think will be ok plus brand new valve set and 2nd oversized pistons and rings. I should be sweet. Nothing to pay except some machining and a gasket set. I also need to decide whether to tear the bottom end down - there,s a ton of shrapnel in there.
I think you just answered your query about tearing it down. At least it needs to be cleaned inside, tiny bits of metal getting in the plane bearings would probably not be a good thing to happen. It is evident the motor could not run with the head destroyed like that, so unless it was happening slowly over time (not likely) the motor should have stopped when the head came apart. Just a good cleaning to get all the metal bits out may be all that is needed, but you have to split the cases to make sure it is clean. Who knows what else you might find when you get in there. :police: 8)
Pistons are out. Yes there's no way I'm getting away without splitting the cases. Molten metal in the gear teeth and bearings. It's quite the mess.
Who wants to sent me one of the lovely low mileage motors you have in the US. You pay the postage of course. Air freight preferred.
Hey POD, I'll get right on that, as soon as you get me those winning Powerball numbers.
Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on June 29, 2019, 05:33:04 AM
Pistons are out. Yes there's no way I'm getting away without splitting the cases. Molten metal in the gear teeth and bearings. It's quite the mess.
Who wants to sent me one of the lovely low mileage motors you have in the US. You pay the postage of course. Air freight preferred.
Does anyone on ROV know someone in the import/export biz?
Over in the Citroen SM group we have a guy that always has containers going between continents. He allows members use the empty spaces to move stuff around. Any chance someone in the VisioNation has such a connection?
It would make getting an engine to PoD easier and cheaper albeit slower.
Good suggestion Mike, but I was joking about shipping one over.
The advice I always give to people about starter motors, carbs etc is to buy a rebuild kit rather than buy into someone else's problems. Same goes for engines i guess. I've not cracked cases before but till I started buying beat up non-running XZs i'd never done anything before except change oil.
Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on July 02, 2019, 07:32:02 AM
Good suggestion Mike, but I was joking about shipping one over.
The advice I always give to people about starter motors, carbs etc is to buy a rebuild kit rather than buy into someone else's problems. Same goes for engines i guess. I've not cracked cases before but till I started buying beat up non-running XZs i'd never done anything before except change oil.
I agree. If I buy a second hand component I do so knowing it may need work.
Of course the specifications for those kits come from somewhere. It used to be all R&D but nowadays forums like this one have changed that. I know first hand of a case where one exotic car forum has a member that is a world renown expert on the cars but he elects to lurk under an alias. Over time he has adopted the engineering changes that members/owners have made that are successful.
Ain't it somethin' how things go? LOL
Split the cases, cleaned out the shrapnel. There was half a ton of it in there from 2 melted valves and half a piston, but clearly the engine didn't run long after the failure as there's no damage to speak of. It's my first time splitting cases, and it's not nearly as difficult as I'd thought. Just followed the manual.
I don't know how many km this engine has on it, but I'm very happy with the overall condition - measured crank bearings, run-out and side clearance while I was in there and all is well within spec. I didn't remove the con-rods but there's no detectable slop. All the bearings are good, and gearbox cogs are hard to tell from new parts.
Everything assembled with a schmeer of Permatex assembly lube, cleaned all the mating surfaces with acetone and glued it back together with Yamabond4. Yamabond is increasingly hard to find these days because it causes cancer in California. Get a tube or two while you can.
Everything causes cancer in California but thanks for the tip, I'll be needing some for my RZ build. Good job on the cleanup but I would have to look at the rod bearings. You can put them back if they are clean.
I like your idea with the rubber bands holding the rod ends from banging on the cases.
Quote from: fret not on August 26, 2019, 03:07:30 AM
I like your idea with the rubber bands holding the rod ends from banging on the cases.
Not my idea I'm sorry to say. It's straight out of Haynes
Sorry about having to split the cases, but some things are necessary.
I much prefer case design that splits the cases horizontally, like many modern bikes. It allows actually knowing whether something fits or not before you close the cases. I suppose that many design 'features' are made for the benefit of production, and not for ease of repair.
A neighbor kid has a Kawasaki ZX10, had dropped a valve and 'lunched' a piston/cylinder head. I was surprised to see that the cylinder bank is contiguous with the upper half of the crankcase, and the cylinder liners are not replaceable liners but 'electroplated' bores in the upper case half. Damage a cylinder and you would need a new set of crankcases, as the cases are a 'matched set' that was processed at the factory as one piece before final assembly.
The bottom end is all together now. Every single measurement is well withing spec, which is very pleasing.
Today a mystery parcel arrived...
Fuel tanks? It's difficult to tell how big the cartons are, but just guessing from the width of the packing tape. :police:
Good guess, but that's not all.
Where on the planet did you find those? Amazing.
From Harald Pfeifer in Germany? I got a silver/gray "set" from him a few years ago. This definitely breathes new life into a project.
Quote from: fret not on September 02, 2019, 01:44:26 PM
From Harald Pfeifer in Germany? I got a silver/gray "set" from him a few years ago. This definitely breathes new life into a project.
Yes, it was Harald. Known on here as "German" he was a real please to deal with.
Did you use it as a full grey set or repaint?
Did you notice a difference in shade between the tank and plastics? My plastics are slightly darker than the tank - probably a different paint batch and poor QC at Yamaha. Not much, but enough to annoy.
The parts I received from Harald are like you mention, slight differences in color, but close enough to use. I have not installed mine yet, waiting for the end of the project so they don't become damaged. I also have an original rusty tank that doesn't leak, so for this I had planned to coat the inside and repaint the outside with the "fish-net stocking" method, to make it look like the scales of a very large snake skin. I need to find that discussion again as I found it to be inspiring.
Harald Pfeifer was a very good person to deal with when I did the procurement process. He wanted some things that were available on the US eBay, so he showed me about the Goofbid/Goofbay site to snipe auctions. A real education for me. It is surprising to me that the Goofbid system worked so well so often. :police:
The side covers are heavily corroded.
Today I stripped off the remaining clear coat, and started sanding and polishing. 8 hours and all I got finished was the oil filter cover. It's not perfect - there are fine scratches I didn't get out, but good enough I think. A coat of clear will make them less visible.
Yup, too shiny. Requires wearing sunglasses. ;)
I have found that preventing deep scratches goes a long way in cutting down the time it requires to polish a surface. For metal, and most other media, going from the coarse grit to finer and finer grits is what it takes to get rid of the scratches and this can be very time consuming. I have found no short cuts other than preventing major damage in the first place, and going in steps from coarser to finer grits until you achieve the surface you want.
I did the whole stepped grit thing, but the trick is to get rid of all the scratches from the prior grit before going to the next grade. If you don't, (like I didn't) then they are stuck there for the rest of the process.
The stock motors were not all that shiny - certainly not mirror finish. Mine will dull off a bit when I put on the clear coat. I was going to use Por15 Glisten PC 2k, but that's no longer available so I've ordered some Eastwood 1k clear.
POD mate, you are a glutton for punishment. Stunning new tanks though. Also very depressing. I spent ages finding a match to the original (Mazda metallic red is pretty damn close) Then POR'ed a good tank I found with just a few dings. Tank and plastics all painted, but of course no badges and stripey bits. Damn, probably cheaper to go the NOS route!!
BTW is your super modified up and running?
Quote from: pinholenz on December 10, 2019, 03:52:32 AM
POD mate, you are a glutton for punishment. Stunning new tanks though. Also very depressing. I spent ages finding a match to the original (Mazda metallic red is pretty damn close) Then POR'ed a good tank I found with just a few dings. Tank and plastics all painted, but of course no badges and stripey bits. Damn, probably cheaper to go the NOS route!!
BTW is your super modified up and running?
Hey John,
Colour is a real trick. I've got a shed load of 16R sidecovers - there's quite a lot of colour variability between individual bikes. The 16R brilliant red is a three stage clear over transparent (candy) over silver. You can't exactly replicate the candy look with a single stage paint, though modern metallics are pretty good.
The NOS route is not exactly cheap. There's a full NOS set on Ebay Germany right now for EUR645. Shipping will be about EUR50-100 on top of that. Then add GST, Biosecurity and customs fees. About $NZ1600 all up.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XZ550s-Lacksatz-Teile-Oldtimer-Tank-Schutzblech-Heck-Seitenleiste-Neu-NOS/113953529157?hash=item1a8828dd45:g:MRYAAOSwAj9dw4dN (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XZ550s-Lacksatz-Teile-Oldtimer-Tank-Schutzblech-Heck-Seitenleiste-Neu-NOS/113953529157?hash=item1a8828dd45:g:MRYAAOSwAj9dw4dN)
I've hunted the world for stripey bits. All I came up with was a single tank stripe. I can lend you that and some old side covers if you want to get some vinyl replicas made. Now I have the NOS tank I have a spare set of repro tank and XZ550 badges if you are interested, or check out http://www.badgereplicas.com.au/ (http://www.badgereplicas.com.au/)
The super-mod is on pause briefly while I quickly knock this bike off, but feeling the urge to make some carbon fibre parts. If you thought NOS parts were expensive, it's nothing compared to CF. But that's a subject for a different thread...
I figured out why this engine had a melt-down. Prior owner (or his mechanic) had put the heads on the wrong way round.
That put the cam chain tensioner on the wrong side. You can guess how long it ran for before it got a valve strike.
My entire life is spent re-doing the work of dickheads.
The difference between genius and stupidity, genius has limits.
Reassembling the engine, I've got really sick of cleaning bolts. Degrease, wire brush, degrease again and then you find half of them are rusted, slogged out, bent, have damaged threads etc. Not a good activity if you have RSI. I went to get a few replacements and found them surprisingly cheap from the wholesaler (about 1/5 of retail price)
I wonder how much would new bolts cost?
$54.54 after tax as it turns out. That's $US34.26.
That's less than an oil change. Why doesn't everyone do this? Buggered if I know.
Here's the engine as it was removed from the bike, and the re-built engine ready to go in the frame.
Second hand cylinder (both honed). Brand new piston, rings, valves, gaskets, shift bearing, waterpipes and seals. Mounts powdercoated, all bolts replaced. Everything measured within spec or replaced.
Nice work, it turned out beautiful... Hope she runs as good as she looks!
Quote from: fiat-doctor on March 07, 2020, 10:37:14 AM
Nice work, it turned out beautiful... Hope she runs as good as she looks!
I hope so also after all the time that's into this. At least if it blows up I'll have a nice stash of nearly new parts.
Here's the other side so this is a good log
Mr. Doom, very nice work. I take it that the engine in the first shot, entangled with the blue and yellow hose, is the same one that looks brand new in the second photo? If that is the case please share with us what you did to address all of the corrosion. The engine in my bike is not nearly as bad as yours was but I want to restore it to look like yours and your experience would help.
It's come up really nicely! Great work!
Quote from: kevin g on March 08, 2020, 02:51:11 PM
Mr. Doom, very nice work. I take it that the engine in the first shot, entangled with the blue and yellow hose, is the same one that looks brand new in the second photo? If that is the case please share with us what you did to address all of the corrosion. The engine in my bike is not nearly as bad as yours was but I want to restore it to look like yours and your experience would help.
I used the best of three engines for each part - but they were all in a similar state.
Start by washing in degreaser, then hot soapy water with a stiff nylon brush.
The sand with wet 180 grit paper till there are no signs of corrosion. Then rinse with warm water and do the same with 240 taking care to sand out all of the scratches made with the 180, repeat with 400, 800, 1500
Finish with Autosol Aluminium polish. You can get to a mirror finish using rouge and a buffing wheels, but that makes it way too shiny.
The rough cast parts, I just used degreaser and a brass brush, followed by aluminium polish.
There are plenty of tutorials on Youtube. It takes a long time. Up to a couple of hours per part.
It won't stay nice for long if it gets rained on without some protection. You can clear coat, or use a protectant like sharkskin, or just be prepared to clean it after it gets rain on it. I don't ride in the rain so not a big deal for me.
If I decide to strip and 'coat' my cases I think I will just sand blast them and let that be good. It gives a rather stark appearance of some racing machines that do not spend time on things that don't make it go faster. It is good to have a 'clean' appearance.
Quote from: fret not on March 10, 2020, 02:19:11 AM
If I decide to strip and 'coat' my cases I think I will just sand blast them and let that be good. It gives a rather stark appearance of some racing machines that do not spend time on things that don't make it go faster. It is good to have a 'clean' appearance.
Sand blasting gives you a finish that is very attractive to dirt, and a greater surface area for corrosion. OK for racers, not for street machines.
Paint would be a better option if you don't want the hassle of maintaining a shine.
Also... if you are sandblasting take a lot of care to mask off the water pump mechanical seal on the clutch side case. One speck of sand will ruin that seal.
I'd got my frame powdered a while back ($180 !!!) so now the engine is bolted in, but still flat on the floor.
Because nobody could afford outsourcing all the black parts to a powdercoater (not to mention we are in lockdown) I have my own Eastwood powder gun and oven for small parts. So far I have done:
- Engine mounts
- Handlebar Risers
- Triple tree upper and lower
- Brake Calipers
- Brake MC
- Main Stand
- Side Stand
- Grab Bar
- Seat Mounts
- Master Cylinder
- Clutch Perch
- Footpeg Assemblies
- Hose clamps
- Swingarm Caps
- Left and Right Switchgear
- Manifold Clamps
Picture is of the second batch I did today (sorry I forgot to image the first batch) - about twice that amount in total. Used $30 of powder, some electricity and about 40 hours of prep time.
Excellent work! I didn't realise that one could use a normal oven for 'fusing' (?) powder coatings.
BTW; I have long been intreagued by your profile image. The tank looks to be bare or transparently coated steel. Was it simply awaiting paint or a finished item?
Also, is that a nitrous cylinder attached to the front of the frame?
Cheers,
Mike
Ps All the best to all with all this Corona/economic meltdown business. lololol I'll be driving a ghost bus tomorrow - school bus with only one or two passengers. All the usual students will be at home running amok and driving whoever potty. And I feel much safer that way!
Quote from: MikeScoot on March 29, 2020, 02:57:07 AM
Excellent work! I didn't realise that one could use a normal oven for 'fusing' (?) powder coatings.
BTW; I have long been intreagued by your profile image. The tank looks to be bare or transparently coated steel. Was it simply awaiting paint or a finished item?
Also, is that a nitrous cylinder attached to the front of the frame?
Cheers,
Mike
Ps All the best to all with all this Corona/economic meltdown business. lololol I'll be driving a ghost bus tomorrow - school bus with only one or two passengers. All the usual students will be at home running amok and driving whoever potty. And I feel much safer that way!
Yes, powders cure at around 200C (400F) so well within the range of a domestic oven. I started with a tiny toaster oven, now I have a small laboratory oven which will fit a whole 18" wheel. Whatever you get, it's well worth replacing thermostat with a PID controller.
Even with the cheap Eastwood gun I consistently get commercial quality results at a fraction of the price.
The tank is bare steel coated in fish oil while I wait to get around to hammering out this big dent. That means cutting an access hole for the dollies. Plan is to nickel plate, but it needs to be perfect.
Alas no, it's not nitrous, that's my DIY Radiator overflow, with an identical oil catch can on the opposite side. I way still change my mind on those when I get back to working on that bike.
We are in full lockdown, not a bus to be seen. Very odd it is too.
A whole 18" wheel? That sounds like a pretty decent oven! Probably also capable of high enough temp. for good for family size pizzas!
Good luck with that tank. Sounds like a pretty serious operation and finishing it off with nickel plating would be a great way to go.
Those parts are looking flash ????
Iain
NZ
Quote from: iain on April 13, 2020, 04:12:51 AM
Those parts are looking flash ??? ?
Iain
NZ
Thanks, nothing quite as nice as a pile of freshly powdered parts. Did you notice your rusty old main stand in there?
Is there nothing you won't powdercoat in that oven?
Heard of powderfinger, goldfinger and even goldmember. Aren't planning a powdermember are we?
Good luck and stay warm. (For those on the wrong side of the equator who might not realise; we are going into the cooler seasons here down under)
Cooler weather is always welcome after a hot dry and combustible season. Here in northern California I am watching the weeds grow as now is the beginning of Spring, and our warm season. I live on a mostly tree canopied 20 acre 'ranch', about 5 acres are accessible for mowing, the remaining area is too steep and rocky to access with the mower. But the weeds grow everywhere and provide lots of ladder fuels if a fire happens. So preparation for our 'fire season' is in my thoughts year round. Now that I'm retired this keeps me busier than I would like, especially because I would prefer to work in my shop and get my XZ550 on the road. Being physically active has been a benefit for my health but now we have the COVID19 and at 75 I need to stay clear of that. So in the mean time I 'ride' the chain saw, drag brush to the piles for chipping, and drive the riding mower with a trailer to bring in the firewood I have cut. I have some piles of 'rounds' to split and stack for drying so I have firewood for the coming winter. I think I am pretty fortunate to be here and be able to manage all this.
Please, everyone, stay safe and avoid getting sick. Give thanks for the day, and be grateful for this Life. :angel: :police: 8)
POD, you are on track to equal or surpass the restoration done by Yellowjacket! a number of years ago.
One benefit of doing the full rebuild is you can get the valves adjusted with full accessibility.....
Quote from: fret not on April 15, 2020, 03:38:39 PM
... I 'ride' the chain saw ...
Funny you should mention chainsaws. I used to do all the warranty work and in-house service work, among other things, for Husqvarna Australia. After years of doing that they sent me out as a rep. up and down Australia's east coast.
My swingarm bearings are in covid parcel hell, so I changed tack for this weekend's activities.
I powdered the switchgear shells, and completely cleaned and lubed all the insides so they are good as new.
For the lettering, it's really hard to get a perfect font match, but I settled on "Stenciletta Solid" 12.5point 100%scale Expanded 2.0px. I used Sunnyscopa film-free waterslide paper (white). Still need to get some white paint in the Horn/Start buttons.
The waterslide making process is a little long-winded, and they aren't too easy to reposition once placed. You can see I didn't get them on perfectly straight, and messed up the N in TURN a bit, but not bad enough to repeat the whole thing. I do think they look better than without the lettering.
I've attached a PDF if you want to do the same.
Wow that looks great! With rebuilt/cleaned/lubed internals it is better than new. Well Done!
The controls look great. I have been wondering what to do with mine and this is a great option. One concern I have is the wear resistance of the lettering. Waterslide decals are very thin and easily scraped away. In my days of building precision detailed models the decals were always over-sprayed with a clear coat. Did you do that on these? How tough do you think the letters are?
It's not like the genuine YAMAHA ones were that great.
This stuff is used for coffee cup logos, so it's rugged enough to stand up to warm soapy water. Acetone dissolves it in an instant, and you can scratch it with a fingernail, though they say it hardens over time.
A coat of clear would improve ruggedness I'm sure, but I haven't. I can always re-do them if I need to.
In the past I've raised the engine up to a rolling frame. It's really difficult (especially singlehandedly) and can lead to a scratched frame.
This time I took a different approach...
With the engine flat on the workbench I just lowered the frame into place and bolted it up.
Rocking it backwards slightly and I could bolt on the front wheel and clamp it to the bench. Got two neighbours to lift the rear while I dropped the stand down.
Too easy!
I know it might sound like a bit of a dumb question (it's close to bed time), but do you mean you lowered the frame onto the engine and it slipped in?
Quote from: MikeScoot on June 09, 2020, 07:16:03 AM
I know it might sound like a bit of a dumb question (it's close to bed time), but do you mean you lowered the frame onto the engine and it slipped in?
Yes, that's it exactly.
That is an invaluably useful piece of info!!! Thanks very much!
Worked on my starter motor today. It was really sluggish. A common problem.
There wasn't much that was wrong with it. The reason it wasn't going was a thick layer of sticky engine oil gunge on the commutator - and pretty much everywhere else. A good clean and paint and it's back in service (with a new $2 seal obviously. It's a 20x35x7mm twin lip rotary oil seal if you are looking).
I baked the hi-heat paint at 200C for 30 mins which does not appear to harm the magnet epoxy.
From start to finish about 3 hours labour and it goes and looks like a new one.
Excellent! Thanks for the info. Mine works well but is possibly the worst looking part of the bike because of stone-chipped surfaces.
Do the headers or left engine case have to come off to remove it? Oil drain?
Cheers,
Mike
It's below oil level which is why they fill full of oil when the seal fails. Sidecovers stay in place.
Very easy, drain the oil, undo the cable and two other bolts and jiggle it to the left.
Procedure is in Haynes
I spent all flipping day looking for a clutch perch. I ended up dumping out all my spares boxes onto the driveway, and sorted then into categories to match the fiche.
The next thing I'm looking for shouldn't be so hard, and if it's sorted and labelled then it's not a hoarding disorder.
Found a clutch perch. It was in the last box I sorted (of course)
lolololol That driveway looks big enough to use as a superhighway - or a Yamaha spare parts distribution centre.
I'm guessing that you've driven all the neighbours out of town and that's why you can call the highway your driveway.
Good work on all the organising.
Also, I never knew that the correct name for a clutch lever mount was a perch. Shows you how much I know about fishing!
Quote from: MikeScoot on July 13, 2020, 03:28:30 AM
Also, I never knew that the correct name for a clutch lever mount was a perch. Shows you how much I know about fishing!
You made me second guess myself, but I googled it and yes, a perch is the correct term.
Quote from: fret not on March 10, 2020, 02:19:11 AM
If I decide to strip and 'coat' my cases I think I will just sand blast them and let that be good. It gives a rather stark appearance of some racing machines that do not spend time on things that don't make it go faster. It is good to have a 'clean' appearance.
Go with soda blasting. Same clean. Less roughing and material loss.
Hi guys
Will be joining you all shortly as i am stripping my XZ at the moment. Hell trying to remove the rear swing arm as all was rusted. Making all bolts etc out of Stainless. will try and sen pics as I go along.
Cheers
Mark
Gorgeous day today. Plus degrees for the first time in ages, and felt like the first day of spring.
Powdered the clutch perch I found last weekend, plus brake and clutch levers as they didn't quite match the black I'm using. This is my second clutch lever as Wemoto had sent me one that was similar, but not correct. To long ago and too expensive to return it :-( It pays to check your parts carefully as soon as they arrive !!! This it the third wrong part I've had sent for this bike.
Also did my shock spring and got the swingarm fitted with new bearings from Yambits. Although the bike is meant to be dead stock I couldn't resist a nice bright red.
Shock looks great. Is it a stocko?
Also wondering whether you lettered the cluster and, if so, how?
Cheers
Quote from: MikeScoot on July 26, 2020, 03:36:50 AM
Shock looks great. Is it a stocko?
Yes, a stock 82 16R (so no damping adjustment). It tested good when I took the spring off. As long as the oil is still on the inside they are not as bad as people make out. Not great, but I've ridden on a lot worse.
Quote from: MikeScoot on July 26, 2020, 03:36:50 AMAlso wondering whether you lettered the cluster and, if so, how?
Yes, I did the lettering. Buttons were just filled with paint and wiped with a gloved finger. The rest were done with waterslides.
If you look up this thread to Reply #57 you'll find about this, and even a PDF with all the lettering done for you.
Thanks for the info. I'm not at all familiar with the process but will research it. Is the whole show clearcoated afterwards, for protection?
Cheers.
Quote from: MikeScoot on July 27, 2020, 04:41:34 AM
Thanks for the info. I'm not at all familiar with the process but will research it. Is the whole show clearcoated afterwards, for protection?
Cheers.
I didn't. It's dishwasher safe, but acetone will dissolve it in a second, and I figured paint solvents probably would as well. Perhaps clear powder coat would work.
Thanks again. Looks very good. :-) You're worth more money!
I was looking at the shock pic and realised the spring is in upside down!!!.
I wonder what difference it would make. If any. It was a pig of a thing to get the spring in without scratching it.
A decidedly spring-like 18 degrees today. Instead of enjoying the sun I spent it stripping carbs.
The main and idle jets and the emulsion tubes all had partial blockages and the float valves were a bit sticky with something mysteriously yellow. No imaginary casting sand though.
Fitted 120.0/120.0 pilot air jets, new o-rings, hoses and filters.
Squeaky clean
You'll notice the absence of a heatshield still. Bought one off DaveXZ and it's been delivered to someone else by NZ Post. So if anyone has a spare, let me know.
I don't know if it will make a difference, but I re-fitted the shock spring in the correct way. I think it looks better upside down.
Another gorgeous spring day.
I was "working from home" today so I rebuilt my petcock, fitted a freshly sealed YICS, assembled and fitted rear footpegs.
I also counted the number of parts on an XZ550. I get 1241 give or take a few.
Are you back in lockdown?
lolol
Great to know there are 1241 parts! Now I know not to go mowing or sweeping till I round a few bits up.
'Working from home' is great, eh. My daughter is 'working from home' in the kitchen tonight. She's working on a cake construction project. I'm hoping that when it's passed the oven completion phase and then equalised a tad with ambient 'working from homeplace' temperature, she'll logistically relocate a specific minor quantity to the workstation in my 'place of residence' office from which I solely operate (when I'm 'working from home').
Cheers mate.
Quote from: Walt_M. on August 26, 2020, 07:01:29 AM
Are you back in lockdown?
No, part of the country is, but I just 'work from home' on Wednesdays to allow concentrated focus on my bigger projects.
You can see how well that's working.
I'd reckon it will be considerably better than a new one! A lot of it already is!
Here is the exhaust that came the bike.
Yes that's galv sheet metal screwed and riveted to hide the rust holes. That and an entire pottle of gasket goop.
Looks a bit "used". :o
lolol yaeh, a bit rough. Still, not as rough as the two systems I took to the scrappie last weekend. They were shockers! lolol
EDIT;
Oops, I take that all back! I just zoomed-in on your pics. Woefull! lolololol
So it's goodbye to the old exhaust, and hello to a NOS Jama exhaust from Holland (Plus an additional 116 mostly NOS parts)
There must be a trick to getting the Y-Piece to stick in place, but damned if I know what it is. Crazy system seems to defy all common sense.
What's the theory? That the not very soft copper o-rings flatten and squeeze on the y-piece so tightly it won't vibrate out? Admittedly the Y-piece and rings are a bit lumpy from past corrosion but that's bullshit.
Copper O-rings are annealed - everything is clean as I can get, but I bolt it up tight as tight and they just pull out with a bit of encouragement.
Last couple I've just welded the ring on the Y-piece and filled the joint with gasket goop. This bike bike I was hoping to do 'properly'
Any hints and tips?
When I was getting my bike running I had a leak at the y-pipe from the copper rings not seating. I gently tapped them down the y-pipe past the taper and they held from the interference fit. I re-assembled the exhaust and have had not more leaks from them.
Yeah, they're mongrels! But that type of joint is supposed to be the ultimate for exhausts! Pretty sure it all depends on having asbestos-filled copper gaskets that will crush to smaller inner diameter and larger outer diameter as the clamp is tightened.
I've forgotten who it was (sorry) but one of our members suggested keeping upward pressure (via chocking or similar) on the "Y" piece as the mufflers are bolted on.
That worked well for me.
I think the whole idea is that th "Y" piece is considered part of the engine, and the engine and "Y" piece should be installed/removed together as a set. Attaching the Y is much easier with the mill out of the bike, but a LOT of caution must be used when installing to frame so the Y piece doesn't get knocked around. I knocked mine a bit but it still works well with no leaks. I used a high temp silicon around the gasket too.
lololol Did they ship ALL THAT STUFF to you with the exhaust?
Quote from: MikeScoot on September 27, 2020, 04:12:03 AM
lololol Did they ship ALL THAT STUFF to you with the exhaust?
Sure did. 30kg.
Don't ask what the shipping cost from Europe.
WOW! What a box of goodies!
It's time to fit the exhaust and I have issue with the bike end of the Y-Piece. I have brand new copper O-rings. I figured they would be a tight press-fit on to the Y piece, but no, they are loosish. Easily put on by hand and exactly the same as the used ones I already had. That's a waste of $60
So here's a question. If the o-rings aren't a tight press fit, then what the hell keeps it all together and sealed tight? There's not enough pressure with the clamp arrangement to squeeze and deform the rings till they clamp. Good intentions don't seal in exhaust gasses. I just don't get it
No idea really but maybe when it runs it gets super hot, the copper expands and it seals?
Doesn't sound good but it's all I've got.
One my y-pipe the end is rolled inward and not as big in diameter as further down the pipe. I gently tapped the copper rings down to this area until they fit the pipe tightly and then bolted things together. I have had no leaks since then. My rings were the original ones and not the new ones, which I intend to get if I decide to keep the bike.
The idea is that as the clamp is tightened the space occupied by the gasket reduces, thereby forcing the gasket material hard against the surfaces that constrain/contain it. A couple of exhaust fellas explained to me that this system is the very best for getting a very tight exhaust gas seal - but I think it assumes the correct gasket being used. Filling the volume around the gasket with high-temp silicone and leaving the assembled pieces only "finger tight" till the silicone sets a bit, then tightening a bit more, then leaving a while before a final tightening seems to have workd for me - BUT I haven't taken th bike for a long run yet as other things have come up.
Good luck with it! Those gaskets you bought may not be a waste at all!
The idea is that as the clamp is tightened the space occupied by the gasket reduces, thereby forcing the gasket material hard against the surfaces that constrain/contain it. A couple of exhaust fellas explained to me that this system is the very best for getting a very tight exhaust gas seal - but I think it assumes the correct gasket being used. Filling the volume around the gasket with high-temp silicone and leaving the assembled pieces only "finger tight" till the silicone sets a bit, then tightening a bit more, then leaving a while before a final tightening seems to have workd for me - BUT I haven't taken th bike for a long run yet as other things have come up.
Good luck with it! Those gaskets you bought may not be a waste at all!
Some more progress. All the pipes are connected, and wiring as well.
Very pleasingly everything worked first time - a testament to the virtues of fanatical cleaning.
ExZellent!
I've been having a bit of a clean around here too, but not quite the required fanatical type yet. I've got XZ leftovers EVERYWHERE and more half-expired spray cans than you could poke a stick at! Funny about that 'cos I'm seriously thinking of stripping all the paint I did (which took a good few months and sheetloads of bucks) to do and giving it another simple job in two-pac.
Acrylic really sucks!
Hope you're enjoying the summer there!
Oh my! That is a vision to behold! Lights! It causes me to consider my project and when I might see the lights come on. For me it will be like stumbling onto a derelict space ship in some remote and desolate place and to find there IS life in the old system after all. It's magic. :)
I took a closer look at the Y-piece. To the aging naked eye it looks fine, but it's actually fairly eroded around the copper o-ring. Hence the sloppy ring.
I've painted it with hardening type exhaust gasket goop. I'll let it harden and cure, then file it. Lets see if that takes out the o-ring slop.
Looks like peanut butter putty.
The rings are now a tight press fit. Not sure if it will hold up, it's pretty fragile.
Well it didn't hold up. A complete fail. I ended up taking it all off with a wire brush.
I have a small (disposable tanks) Oxy/Propane torch, so brazed a layer of silicon bronze to fill the flame cutting. The Y-pipe is a bit heavy for this tiny torch - it only just managed to get the pipe hot enough to melt the bronze.
The Y-pipe seems solid enough now. I still think a decent flange would have been more sensible Mr Yamaha. I forgot to take a pic of the Y-pipe, and it's too late now.
Can't see much at all of that pesky "Y-piece" in that pic, but what I do see looks very nice indeed!
I think the trick with the "Y-piece' is to have enough material inside the cavity of the clamps (and at the right viscosity or size) so that when the clamps are tightened they force the material hard against the pipe attached to the head.
The arrangement is a prime feck-up - from a serviceability point of view!
Bled my brakes today to make the bike safer to take down from the lift.
I am reminded that the bleeding procedure outlined in Haynes and the Yamaha service manual is OK for fluid changes, but does not work well if you have new empty lines and calipers.
The process I use is to pump it up from the bottom with a syringe. This one's a bit small but all I could find on a Saturday.
When re-loading the syringe, you need to pull back a bit to get any bubbles out before pumping. Go slowly else the fluid comes out the master cylinder like a fountain.
Love my Hell braided stainless lines. Lever action is solid as a rock.
Hmmm, that's not a good sign.
Rohan, did the O ring fail?
Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on November 14, 2020, 04:33:12 AM
Hmmm, that's not a good sign.
Is that engine coolant? Not from the water pump cover o-ring I hope?
Quote from: vintage bikeworks on November 14, 2020, 05:14:58 PM
Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on November 14, 2020, 04:33:12 AM
Hmmm, that's not a good sign.
Is that engine coolant? Not from the water pump cover o-ring I hope?
No but that would be an easy fix. It's coolant coming from the head gasket.
New gasket, clean surfaces and properly torqued to spec.
Warpage, piece of debris, a crack? Won't know till I drop the engine and crack it open. Again. Sigh!
Things like this teach us about patience. Has this motor been run since you installed the head gasket?
Don't race into pulling the mill down too quickly. Coolant circulates independnt of the combustion components. It could be a simple small crack somewhere or those pesky tubes from the pump to the motor.
Leave it alone for a day or so and have a good think, mate. There may well be a very easy fix.
I'm looking to reproduce the miscellaneous decals that came on the bike from factory. I'm sorted for tank decals and switchgear but need things like oil labels, tyre sizes, check brake linings etc.
I don't even know what came originally. Does anyone have any photos of these?
Meantime, the engine is back on the bench so I can address the coolant leak. The surfaces were well cleaned and bolts torqued to spec. I figure something is preventing the torque being properly applied to the mating surfaces.
Working theories are
a) the stud bolts have backed out while unscrewing so the cylinder nuts are bottoming out
b) the drilling depth on the heads changed at some point and the cylinder nuts (from a different bike) are bottoming out
c) the dowel pins have got on a jaunty angle and prevent the head from fully torquing down
b) the cylinders / heads have warped and prevent the head from fully torquing down
Hi Rohan
Happy Boxing day. Thinking about your problem, have you thought about using new nuts? The threads could be failing and causing you not to be able to reach torque spec.
Quote from: Walt_M. on December 26, 2020, 08:30:29 AM
Hi Rohan
Happy Boxing day. Thinking about your problem, have you thought about using new nuts? The threads could be failing and causing you not to be able to reach torque spec.
Thanks Walt, Happy Boxing Day to you too.
At this point I've eliminated the nuts - I am getting good torque readings and the threads are in perfect condition
The engine is a 16R, the cylinders and heads are from a 11U.
Starting with the front cylinder (which was leaking a lot more than the other):
d) Check flatness of the mating surfaces. I taped some 400 grit to my surface plate (certified flat to 0.0001") Some back/forth action and I can see that these are far from flat. Almost the entire surface is one giant high spot. About 3000+ strokes later and it's looking freshly machined. Still a few casting defects, but trying to catch them could reveal more, and I don't want to mess up clearances. Very little warpage evident on the cylinder, but cleaned it up anyway
c) The dowel pins look good. Slight corrosion only. Double checked the recesses were clean and polished the pins to a shine. With a liberal coat of assembly lube they slip in easily, but not sloppy. Tapped gently with a rubber hammer during assembly to ensure good seating.
b) There is no significant difference between the 11U and 16R drillings.
a) The studs sit 2mm higher on the 16R than the 11U engine. If I'm less than 5mm from the top of the stud to top of the nut, then I'm bottoming out. I'll torque and measure that tomorrow and move on to the rear.
Everything back together and I blew some air in to check it was now water tight.
Depressingly it's still leaking out the head gasket.
Take care to to use too much pressure. 15PSI is about right
Rohan, can you put some sort of dye in there that will leave traces of it's presence as it leaks out? Paint would be a big mess to clean up, but some very thin viscosity dye or chemical should leave a trace where it made contact with any surface.
Happy New Year, folks.
I'm sure you have thought of it, Rohan, but is there a possibility that the gaskets themselves are the cause of the trouble? You could try tightening it up very slightly without them - using a consistent thin bead of silicone instead - and see if the leak/s persist.
Anyway, I'm sure you have your own list of things to check.
Good luck with it and very confident you'll put your finger on the cause soon.
In the meantime, Happy New Year, again :-)
Quote from: MikeScoot on January 01, 2021, 01:58:41 AM
is there a possibility that the gaskets themselves are the cause of the trouble? You could try tightening it up very slightly without them - using a consistent thin bead of silicone instead - and see if the leak/s persist.
The tolerance for head surface flatness is listed as 0.03mm. I've lapped the surfaces on a 0.001mm certified surface plate so sure I'm very well inside that.
To test I coated the surfaces in marking out dye, and a few swipes on 400grit paper sees it all scuffed off nice and evenly.
A precision straight edge and a cigarette paper (remember those?) shows no high points.
Turns out there is a variation of 0.5mm in the thickness of the genuine Yamaha gaskets !!! WTF (Good call Mike)
The metal rings (which do not compress much) are thicker than the compressible part. No way that's ever going to seal up without some help.
I'll try a good dose of spray copper on the stock gaskets, but I doubt that will bridge a 0.5mm gap. Alternate plan will be to cut some solid copper gaskets. If you are wondering about the 83 metal gaskets, they are too thin and gave me valve strike.
By the way, the leaks are in the centre of each cylinder, exhaust side. There's a drilling there for a half stud. Yamaha never did put this half stud in on production bikes but it does make this the thinnest wall, and so more susceptible to leaks. It's tempting to put a stud in there.
If you have the 83 cylinders then you could use the 83 head gaskets. The 83 cylinders were taller.
Quote from: jefferson on January 09, 2021, 09:55:55 AM
If you have the 83 cylinders then you could use the 83 head gaskets. The 83 cylinders were taller.
I don't have any 83 cylinders. 83s are so rare in NZ as to be practically non-existent. I'm surprised that the 83 gasket gave valve strike - I didn't think the tolerances were that tight, but there you have it.
Before I went cutting a copper gasket, I thought I'd try some copper gasket spray on the thick, (but wobbly) Yamaha gaskets.
Did two coats, fitted and let it set up overnight before testing. I also added a M8 half stud.
It's happily holding 2 bar of air pressure (29 PSI) The rad cap blows at 13 PSI so that should be sufficient assuming it's not affected by the heat.
I'm calling it job done, and I'll bolt the engine back in tomorrow.
Mr. Doom, your engine sure looks nice. You should come and clean mine up in your spare time.
Quote from: kevin g on January 12, 2021, 08:33:01 PM
Mr. Doom, your engine sure looks nice. You should come and clean mine up in your spare time.
Sure. No problem
So far my bike has taken about 950 hours - a mere $95,000 worth at $100/hr
Will that be cash or Paypal Kevin?
I spent that kind of time on a 1998 R100RS - complete rejuvenation. Then I decided I liked my modern BMWs better so I sold it.
Wow, Minty.
Clearly you don't need any help with polishing. Nicely done Kevin
Thanks, I did the paint myself as well. It is Alpine White with a little blue pearl in it. The checkers are painted, not a sticker. The masking was time consuming to say the least.
Just about done now.
Just the rear wheel bearings to do and I'll press the vroom vroom button.
That looks very nice. What is the exhaust system? From the markings stamped on it, it does not look like the stock system I am familiar with.
It's a Jama. Not made any more but I found someone with a new one in their spares stash
NICE! You will remember the first scratch you put on it. ;D
Good One. Looks great.
Those front discs look interesting.
Quote from: MikeScoot on February 13, 2021, 11:59:16 PM
Good One. Looks great.
Those front discs look interesting.
Genuine XZ. Off a XZ400 but the 83s are the same.
EBC make nice replacement rotors if you want something a bit interesting
lolol Shows you how well I know the various (not too many) XZ models. The exhaust cans look very good. Did they bolt on to the existing headers (with those troublesome manifold clamp crappers)?
Cheers
Mine's a 16R like yours so originally no slots in the rotors, but they do make a difference and safety took precedence over absolute originality.
Ditto for the air capped forks and tapered steering bearings.
Let's call it 99.99% original
Yes. The Jama has identical mounting to stock, though it's a two-piece that clamps together rather than a one piece.
For the tricky rear manifold I used some bronze brazing rod to increase the OD of the Y-piece. This made the copper rings really tight. A schmeer of copper RTV and I think it's buttoned up pretty well. I don't have a smoke machine to test for leaks unfortunately
Sounds like a good trick with the rear manifold mongrels, but certainly one needing skill.
Plugging away here trying to find decent open source video converters. Been watching MillionDollarBogan on Youtube and kinda inspired to do something with some sheety footage I have that needs torturing to look any good. But as usual, different software like different formats - pain in the ARZZZZZ.
Front twin disk brake still has too much lever movement, but I've bled three times (from both directions). No bubbles, and no visible leaks. There must be a bubble caught somewhere – a ride around the block might loosen it up.
Everything else is done and today I filled my pony tank with fuel and gave it a crank. Odds on that it was going to start, or explode in a fiery ball of flame or send a piston flying through the tank. As it turned out nothing so exciting. It seems to want to catch first rotation, but then starter slows down. Voltage dropping to around 10 so bike's on charge now. Hope it's nothing more complex.
Also getting a dripple of fuel through the overflows.
Its getting very close now????
Iain
NZ
Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on February 28, 2021, 12:15:21 AM
Front twin disk brake still has too much lever movement, but I’ve bled three times (from both directions). No bubbles, and no visible leaks. There must be a bubble caught somewhere
Have you tried the time tested method of zip tying the brake lever to the handgrip and leaving overnight? This should eliminate all the micro bubbles in the fluid. They will rise up to the master cylinder and vent to the open air space there. Works for me every time and gives a solid feeling lever.
Looking sharp otherwise p.o.d. !! Paint color is very nice. Is it a factory color? Looks more candy apple than the red I've seen on others but I like!
That's a good hint. I'll try that.
This is a brand new set kept in a box since 1982, not a repaint. It doesn't get any more accurate than this, and the pic I posted is a pretty faithful reproduction of what it looks like in real life. The red of the Euro and Australasian versions is different from US models. It's clearcoat over red candy over silver.
Quote from: Prophet Of Doom on March 01, 2021, 11:17:13 PM
That's a good hint. I'll try that.
This is a brand new set kept in a box since 1982, not a repaint. It doesn't get any more accurate than this, and the pic I posted is a pretty faithful reproduction of what it looks like in real life. The red of the Euro and Australasian versions is different from US models. It's clearcoat over red candy over silver.
Paint reminds me of the Honda candy apple red they used during the early to mid 70's. The Honda 50 mini trail and larger CT70 mini trail. Maybe even some of the smaller street bikes too. Remember?
It's hard to believe I've not touched this bike in 10 months, but what with the plague, winter, family illness, other projects...
Still, it's summer holls now, sunny, 30-odd degrees, no responsibilities and the garage calls.
A fresh battery charge and the thing leapt into life on first second crank. No choke, no throttle. I've never had a V start so easily.
It then proceeded to dump all my fuel on the garage floor through the overflows. Grrr
It's got to be either sticking floats or leaking float valves. Carbs out tomorrow.