Riders Of Vision

General => TechTalk => Topic started by: dj on April 30, 2007, 11:24:54 AM

Title: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on April 30, 2007, 11:24:54 AM
Well, I've finally made up my mind to not put the bike in the shop and just start ripping into her myself.  I’m still dealing with the issue of it not starting.  I borrowed a flywheel puller from my father-in-law and I planned on starting it this past weekend, but the rain we got in Maine kind of put a damper on my ambition.

I've been doing some testing with the bike and it seems to be either one of two things that are preventing the motor from turning over. Voltage of the battery that I have been using is 12.2V under no load and low 11's when under load.

     - Either the starter motor isn't turning properly
     OR
     - The starter clutch is loose/messed up.

I've rebuilt the starter motor (new seal and new guts) but I am not sure if it is turning fast enough.  My first task this upcoming weekend (or sooner if the rain stops before then) will be to take the left side cover off and remove the gear that connects the starter motor from the rest of the gears and hit the ignition switch.  This will let me actually see how effective the starter is turning.  I don't think anything is binding up in the starter itself, but I just want to make sure first.  I tested it before putting it back on the bike and it turned over when it was connected to power in the vise.  Although it was hard to turn by hand.  So there may be a problem with to much friction somewhere in the starter motor that is making it not turn fast enough.  So here’s a question, how easily should the starter turn by hand when out of the bike?

After that I plan on checking out the starter clutch itself to see what is going on behind the flywheel.  I have a large tarp that I plan on parking the bike on (to catch anything that comes out from under the flywheel when I remove it.  I figure that everything should land on the tarp and be easier to find again instead of trying to pick around in the grass of the front lawn to find things. ;)  I have Lucky’s CD and will be rereading the starter clutch information on his site and in the manuals.  So here is the second question, is there any other special tools that I’ll need besides the flywheel puller to checkout the starter clutch?  How do I tell if something is loose in the starter clutch?  And lastly what is under the flywheel that will come springing out when it pops off?

Any advice/help that anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated.  This is my first time doing a repair like this so I am a little tentative about how to proceed.  Thanks in advance.

PS - anybody in my area that could come up and help me??  ;D
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: Night Vision on April 30, 2007, 01:25:03 PM

So here’s a question, how easily should the starter turn by hand when out of the bike?

the starter will turn by hand, it does require a good amount of force, but it should not bind... you can hear the gears spinning and a whirling type sound

So here is the second question, is there any other special tools that I’ll need besides the flywheel puller to checkout the starter clutch? 

you need metric bolts to fit into the flywheel and possibly a sacrificial bolt to put in the crank.... see Don's thread

How do I tell if something is loose in the starter clutch?  And lastly what is under the flywheel that will come springing out when it pops off?

the only moving parts in the starter clutch are the cams and springs. When the clutch starts spinning fast enough, the cams "grab" and turn the crankshaft/rods/pistons. It is these cams and springs (the springs also have a metal cover on one end) that go flying.... again see Don's pics

Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: dj on April 30, 2007, 01:38:36 PM
NV - thanks for the reply.  I'm not sure if the bolts that I have are metric or standard.  There are three or four sets of bolts (of various lengths) that came with the puller that I am borrowing.  I'll check out Don's post when I get home as I can't see the pics from work.

DAMN FIREWALL!!!
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: Lucky on April 30, 2007, 05:54:22 PM
one other tool you'll need:
BFH, nothing rated in ounces...
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: Night Vision on April 30, 2007, 07:17:14 PM
he's a blacksmith... he ought to have lots of bfh's  :D
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: Tiger on April 30, 2007, 08:50:46 PM
  I'm not sure if the bolts that I have are metric or standard. 

dj...Look at the head's of the bolt's, if they read...8.8 or 10.9 or even 12.9 then they are metric ;)

                     
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weeken
Post by: inanecathode on May 01, 2007, 07:33:09 AM
Would an inpact wrench and some heat be a bad idea? Or might that make things a little easier on the flywheel end of things.
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 09:58:56 AM
he's a blacksmith... he ought to have lots of bfh's  :D

I have a 2.5 pound crosspeen (the smallest hammer I ever use) and a 4 pound sledge in my shop.  If I need anything bigger then that I'll need to borrow my father-in-law's 5 pound or 8 pound sledge.

Big hammers are something I can get my hands on very easily.  ;D
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 10:12:48 AM
Here are some updates from the work I did last night.  I also took some pictures that will be forthcoming (probably this afternoon).

As stated the first thing I looked at was the starter motor.  I took off the side cover and also removed the gear that goes on the metal rod right next to the starter motor.  I then hit the ignition switch and the starter motor turned very fast and made a nice whirring sound (no binding).

So I then pulled out the puller to see if I had the right bolts that I need.  Well, I have one set of bolts that are the right thread size, but I am not sure if they are the right length or not.  They are around 3.5-4 inches in length (guesstamate:  I couldn’t find the tape measure and I was doing this at around 1030 at night).  I didn’t actually use the puller last night as it was already getting late and it was starting to rain again.

What I did notice is that the three bolts from the starter clutch appear to be backed into the holes approx. 3-4 threads.  They are only slightly with drawn into the holes so I am hoping that means that nothing is chewed up on the inside.  The engine has never made any knocking sounds when running, so I don’t expect there to be any damage to the starter clutch.  So hopefully all I’ll need to do is get the right size grade 8 bolts for the replacement and peen them over per the instructions on Lucky’s site.  I plan on taking the old bolts to the hardware store and getting some new ones that are about 3-4 threads longer to give enough extra length to peen them.

I have printed out the applicable pages from the Haynes manual for the removal.  Unfortunately the parts store didn’t have any chain wrenches, so does this mean that I’ll need to take off the right side case and wedge a rag in the gears on the other side to be able to get the center bolt out of the flywheel?  Not a big deal if I have to, it just means that I’ll need to place a new side cover seal on order.
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: Night Vision on May 01, 2007, 12:13:56 PM
you do not take the right side case off. I use a lead wheel weight to jam into the gears (in the left case)... I used a rag before, but that got chewed up and then I had to pick a bunch of cloth out of the teeth
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 12:26:11 PM
you do not take the right side case off. I use a lead wheel weight to jam into the gears (in the left case)... I used a rag before, but that got chewed up and then I had to pick a bunch of cloth out of the teeth

NV - what is a lead wheel weight?  I have never heard of this before.
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: YellowJacket! on May 01, 2007, 01:40:15 PM
one of those little weights that they clip onto your rims on your car to balance them.  Easier to see if you have stock steel rims.  If you have aluminum rims, they may stick them on the inside with double stick tape and you can't see them.

David
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 01:50:11 PM
one of those little weights that they clip onto your rims on your car to balance them.  Easier to see if you have stock steel rims.  If you have aluminum rims, they may stick them on the inside with double stick tape and you can't see them.

David

Well, I don't have any of those kicking around, however I do have a decent supply of shop cloths to use the rolled up rag trick.  I'll just have to see how things go.  Thanks for the input guys.
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 02:00:48 PM
Here is the first of a few pics that I took of how things look.  This first pic is of the flywheel.  You can't see it very well, but the three bolts are backed into the hole a few threads.  Not 100% sure if this is my problem yet, but it definetly aint helping.
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: don_vanecek on May 01, 2007, 02:11:48 PM
I just used rags when I did mine. For whatever help it is to you, I purposely took a picture of the bolts I used next to a ruler. I suppose next time I should do it next to a metric ruler, duh!

By the way, although this will cost you more money, I was sure glad I used that cometic gasket, since you don't put any dope on it, it sure made for a quick an easy job when I had to take my side cover off again. All I had to do was wipe alittle oil off.  Of course my engine had not ran, (thank goodness) I suppose the gasket may react alittle different after running though several hot/cold cycles.

AH, I see you are on as I write this!
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 02:16:15 PM
Don - yeah, I am trying to post pictures of the flywheel, but the picture is to big and I am having trouble compressing it.

I also can't see any of the pics from your post at work, firewall blocks it.  I didn't get a chance to check it out from home last night, but I plan on it tonight before I do anything else with the bike.
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 02:50:34 PM
Here are two more pics of the bike.  One is of gear on the end of the starter motor and the other is a view of the left side of the bike.
Title: Re: Wish me luck as I plan on ripping into the starter clutch this coming weekend.
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 03:09:41 PM
Heres a few more of my V.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 03:21:25 PM
last ones until the flywheel is off.  ::)

ONLY 14052 miles on her.  Not to bad for being 25 years young.

She'll be looking a lot better once she gets a new coat of paint.  Keeping the same color schemes, just fixing the messed up part on the tank and adding a little of my own flavor to it.  I love the look of the blue and silver (image that coming from and Air Force guy  ::))
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 01, 2007, 03:33:52 PM
that's a good looking V there dj... glad you haven't given up on her...

the last flywheel I took off had two sheered bolts and one that was backing out... by the time I pulled the flywheel, the starter clutch stayed on the crank  :o

your flywheel / bolts look ok from what I can see... good time to replace them. it's when you get oblong holes where the bolts are that you have woes.

there seems to be some sticky rollers on the formum lately... hopefully that's all thats wrong with yours.

when you do get the correct metic bolts for the puller, make sure you don't screw them in too far. they only go in about 5 or 7 16ths. of an inch. otherwise you'll bend the tin backing plate on the starter clutch..

chances are you won't be able to get new clutch bolts that are 3 or 4 threads longer. You'll prolly end up getting longer ones, put a nut on it, and the cut or grind them down.. Without digging up my old posts, I'd say they are 6mmx1.25x12? I took the bolt and put two metric nuts on it. Ground the bolt on a bench grinder until I reached the first nut. took the first nut off, cross-cut with a dremel (makes peening lots easier) slightly cleaned the threads up in the grinder, and took the last nut off.

this makes them the "perfect" length.. well perfect enough for me and you don't have to measure nut-in.  ;)
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 04:02:17 PM
Quote
that's a good looking V there dj... glad you haven't given up on her...

Yup, she is a pretty thing aint she.  Need to polish the engine up a bit and fix the paint.  remount the fairing, mount the backrest/rack, and do a few odds and ends still and then she will be looking great.

Quote
there seems to be some sticky rollers on the formum lately... hopefully that's all thats wrong with yours.

Hopefully it is just the sticky rollers problem that has been going around.  Still going to replace the bolts to make sure I don't have problems with them latter on.

Quote
make sure you don't screw them in too far.

FINGER TIGHT!!!  I read that in the Haynes manual.  Printed it out and plan on highlighting it so I don't forget it.

Quote
and you don't have to measure nut-in. 

BAD PUN, no cookie for you. ;)
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 07:05:37 PM
okay, I am trying to get the bolt out of the flywheel to be able to put the puller on, but I can't get the darn thing to budge.  Is this thing reverse thread or am I just a wimp?
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: YellowJacket! on May 01, 2007, 07:43:05 PM
DJ,

If you are having trouble adjusting your pictures and uploading them, try something like I use called photobucket.  Its free and its web based so you don't have to download any programs to do it.  www.photobucket.com
You can also email them to me at xz550rj (AT) gmail.com and I'll be glad to upload them for you if you don't want to mess with photobucket.

David
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Tiger on May 01, 2007, 07:58:29 PM
okay, I am trying to get the bolt out of the flywheel to be able to put the puller on, but I can't get the darn thing to budge.  Is this thing reverse thread or am I just a wimp?
;D...WIMP... ;D :D :D :D... ;) Not really, this will be in real tight. first, make sure the flywheel will not turn...give the bolt a decent whack with a hammer to shock it, then try and loosen it. (I used an impact wrench, makes the job much easier).

                           
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 01, 2007, 08:29:28 PM
I've got an "impact" wrench. it's called a 4 foot chain link fence post that's pinched on the end so a 1/2" ratchet fits snug....  :o
Title: YEAH!
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 10:00:54 PM
I got the bolt out.  My father stopped by on his way back to his place and lent me his BFBB (read BIG F@#KING BREAKER BAR).   ;D

One good turn with it and it came loose.  The center bolt is out and tomorrow I'll be putting the puller on it to get the flywheel off.

I'll be looking through Don's thread to see what length bolts I'll need for the puller and have my wife pick them up tomorrow while I am at work.  So hopefully my updates wednesday night (or thursday morning) will be that the flywheel and starter clutch is off the bike.

Still have a few days work left to do before things will be totally off the bike to diagnose the problem as I have limited day light after I get home.  I work 4 ten hour days (but I get a three day weekend).
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 01, 2007, 10:47:14 PM
Okay, here is another question.  The bolts that I have are 3.5 inches in length.  The ones that Don used were around 4 inches in length.  Are the 3.5 inch bolts going to be long enough or do I need to get the 4 inch bolts?

Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 02, 2007, 07:57:33 AM
If the 3.5" bolts are long enough to reach the holes in the flywheel and still get the puller on, then use them, if not... get longer ones. The reason I gave Don the longer bolts is because I also gave him a bolt to put in the end of the crank to put the puller on instead of pushing directly on the end of the crank. without the bolt, shorter bolts might work. without the bolt, you may risk damaging the threads in the crank. I don't know what your puller looks like. It may have a flat foot, pointed foot, or no foot on the end of the large threaded rod
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 02, 2007, 08:07:15 AM
NV - the puller that I have has a tappered point on the end, so that it fits into the hole that the bolt goes in, but doesn't touch the threads.

I'll check everything out tonight and see if they are long enough.  Didn't have enough light left to see if things were the right length or not.  I didn't get the center bolt off until around 2200.  I'll be spending time tonight getting the flywheel off and hopefully finally seeing what is going on with my starter clutch.

Another question, there seems to be a few problems with people having sticky rollers in the starter clutch.  How do you "unstick" the rollers?  Spray a little luberications spray (PB Blaster/WD 40) on it and move them by hand?
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Lucky on May 02, 2007, 09:04:46 AM
Sticky rollers are not really an issue, it was a poor way to describe it. the problem is more of worn springs & flat spots on the rollers, & that's probably not all that common either unless the clutch has been abused.

--Lucky
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 02, 2007, 11:00:27 AM
Sticky rollers are not really an issue, it was a poor way to describe it. the problem is more of worn springs & flat spots on the rollers, & that's probably not all that common either unless the clutch has been abused.

--Lucky

Okay, so how do I tell if the springs are weak?  Would it be a good idea just to replace the springs and rollers to know for a fact that they are good?
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Lucky on May 02, 2007, 11:43:50 AM
not sure if there is a spring hight spec somewhere..if they are aval then replacing them would be a good idea.  you'll know if the rollers are flatspotted, you'll see it, but unless the clutch was slipping before i wouldn't worry about it...
Title: good news, bad news, good news, bad news, and questions...
Post by: dj on May 02, 2007, 09:03:49 PM
Well the first good news is that my supervisor let me out early today so I was syched about getting a few extra hours of daylight to work on the bike.

Bad news, my wife had the car and she was online (dialup) and it took me half an hour to get ahold of her to come pick me up... then she has 3-4 errands that she needs to run before going home, so I get home only 10 minutes earlier then I would have if I left work on time>   >:( >:( >:(

Bad news, the bolts on the puller were to short, so HOME DEPOT bound I go.

Good news - I find the bolts right away and only spend like 3 bucks on them and the washers.

Good news - I fit everything up and start working on taking the flywheel off.

BAD NEWS - can't get the flywheel off, and the end of the puller (that my father-in-law said wouldn't get in towards the threads) gets stuck in the flywheel.  I take the puller off and there is the end staring me in the face from the thread hole of the flywheel.

Good news - I got out the vise grips and yanked it out.

Slightly good news - didn't damage the threads, but the bolt goes in tighter then before.

Bad news - I am stumped on how to get the flywheel off. So I start looking at things more closely.

Good news - I notice that there are dents on the sides of the bolts for the starter clutch and that they are pretty much flush with the outter part of the threads.  THEY ARE ALREADY PEENED!!  It is amazing what you can notice when you are actually working in the daylight.

Bad news - I go to put everything back together for further testing and the gasket got ripped.  I left it in the house in an area that the kids don't play in and it still got F@#KED UP >:( >:( >:( So I need to order a new gasket before I can do anything else.

Questions - So since the bolts are already peened over that is a pretty good indication that the fix has already been done.  So what else could be going on to make the bike not start?  Hear are the specs from the last testing:

     battery charged to around 12 volts (jumping it from the car)
     rebuilt starter with new guts and seal (no oil in it)
     turn the ignition over and it wont engage the engine.  (Starter is whirring away)

  ??? ??? ???

So what is going on with my bike?!?  If my hair was longer (clipper cut (military)) then I would be pulling it out!
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: comatt on May 02, 2007, 09:12:46 PM
That sucks that you are having such a hard time with the starter clutch.  When I did mine it took a while a a couple of nice words to get it off. 

About the gasket, when I did mine I just used a big piece of gasket paper from the auto store and cut my own out.  It maynoe be the best idea, but it is still holding after a year.  I scaned the old gasket on my printer and printed a copy of it and used that to trace and cut out the new one.  Seems a lot of people use the reuseable ones, maybe someday I will get one.

Good Luck!

comatt
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 02, 2007, 09:15:52 PM
dj, the factory bolts were peened to begin with... the little dimples you see on the edges of the bolts were made by a little ole Japanese lady with a sprained wrist and a LFH.

they may be ok now, but won't last forever.
can you reach behind the flywheel and move the starter clutch?
one way?
both ways?
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 02, 2007, 09:17:50 PM
Comatt - I'll have to check where the tear is in the gasket.  If it is at the top I my just put it back on for testing purposes.  It'll take a few (4-5) days for the gasket to come in from the dealer when I order it.

NV - I'll go check and let you know.  The starter clutch is directly behind the flywheel correct? (that'll be a tight fit to get my big meaty fingers)
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 02, 2007, 09:24:48 PM
NV - no, I can't get to the starter clutch.  the gear right behind the flywheel/startclutch doesn't give enough clearance to be able to get my fingers on it.  there is only about a 1/4 inch gap between the gear and the starter clutch.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Lucky on May 02, 2007, 09:34:11 PM
NV is right you gotta pull that puppy off..  :(  sorry...
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 02, 2007, 09:36:54 PM
NV is right you gotta pull that puppy off..  :(  sorry...

I've got the center bolt out again and I am trying the puller with out the tip on it.  with out the tip it is a flat end.  I'll see how that works.  I'm just having a problem with geting the three bolts to set it properly.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 02, 2007, 09:46:28 PM
okay the puller is back on the flywheel.  How much do I have to crank down on it before I whack it with the hammer?  I have never done this before and I don't want to mess anything up.  Please help.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 02, 2007, 09:51:55 PM
its important that the pulling bolts are even and the puller is centered and squared up to the crank.
if the puller is cockeyed... you'll be fighting physics or some Newton's law  :o

you tighten the center rod as much as you can with a short wrench... no breaker bar here!
tighten... wack... tighten... wack... take it slow and dont be afraid to give it a good soild WACK

Good News - it's amazing how much easier they go back on  :D
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 02, 2007, 09:55:08 PM
i'm working on it right now.  trust me i'm giving it some good whacks.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 02, 2007, 10:09:34 PM
still working at it.  can't believe the darn thing hasn't popped off yet?!?
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 02, 2007, 10:16:41 PM
don't turn your back on it... that's when it pops off and you don';t see where the parts went
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 02, 2007, 10:25:22 PM
HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!

the center bolt on the puller just bent.

pictures coming soon.  Still haven't gotten the flywheel off yet. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: comatt on May 03, 2007, 12:19:29 AM
dj, you may have done this, but did you remove the center bolt that hold the starter clutch on. I could not tell with the pics you had.  I rememer when I did it I had to use a chain visegrip and a wrench to remove the center bolt.  I could be wrong, it has been a while.  Or more likely you already did it.  After I got the center bolt off it only took me a couple of wacks on the puller for it to fly across the room.  I didn't really flew but it did scare the sh#t out of me when it came off.

comatt
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 03, 2007, 06:13:42 AM
Comatt - yes the center bolt that goes to through the flywheel is out.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 03, 2007, 07:57:08 AM
yep, it's bent there Jimmy Houston.....

don't panic... couple of things could be going on here....

1) your puller is was crooked and not square to the flywheel
2) your BFH is really a 10lb. sledge... a two or four pound hammer is sufficient...
3) that's a wimpy azz center rod on a Harbor Freight / made in Chiner puller.........
4) the center rod diameter is too big to fit through the hole in the flywheel / not making contact with the end of crank..
5) you are a mighty man
E) all of the above  :D

Good News -  nothing a $20 craftsman puller won't fix.
More Good News - you didn't snap the pulling bolts or strip out the threads in the flywheel.



 
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Lucky on May 03, 2007, 08:03:28 AM
#4 sounds very possable.
when i did mine, my puller had a wobbly foot on the end which was too big to sit inside the flywheel, on the crank.  i had to grind this foot off the puller.  i think i used a small hardened bolt in the crank to push on. (so i wouldn't mess up the threads)
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 03, 2007, 08:32:43 AM
yep, it's bent there Jimmy Houston.....

don't panic... couple of things could be going on here....

1) your puller is was crooked and not square to the flywheel
2) your BFH is really a 10lb. sledge... a two or four pound hammer is sufficient...
3) that's a wimpy azz center rod on a Harbor Freight / made in Chiner puller.........
4) the center rod diameter is too big to fit through the hole in the flywheel / not making contact with the end of crank..
5) you are a mighty man
E) all of the above  :D

Good News -  nothing a $20 craftsman puller won't fix.
More Good News - you didn't snap the pulling bolts or strip out the threads in the flywheel.

NV

1 is possible, but unlikely.  The puller was flush against the flywheel on all sides when I started tightening it down.

2 - nope, it is my 2.5 pound cross peen that I use for my blacksmithing hammer.  although by the end of a day at the forge it does feel like a 10 pound hammer.

3 - i'll have to go buy a new one from sears (craftsman)

4 - what size should the center rob be?  should I get a bolt to go through the flywheel hole, and if so should it actually partial thread in or just sit in the hole?

5 - you never want to get punched by a blacksmith. ;D

Lucky - did the bolt you used in the hole just sit in the hole or does it need to be long enough to push on something on the inside of the hole?

I guess I am just a little confused on how this actually works.  If someone could clarify things for me (never used a puller before so not sure what it should do).
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Lucky on May 03, 2007, 08:40:07 AM
the point is that the end of the center bolt (that you tighten & whack) rests on the end of the crankshaft without damaging the threads. 

a couple of grade 8 washers that fit inside the flywheel will work (& if the tip of the bolt is ground to a point it'll center up automaticly)

or a bolt that fits well in the hole & threads, but it'll have to have a small head so it doesn't contact the flwheel.

i think i used a bolt that sat loose in the threads, it was a long time ago & i don't remember..
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Coil Coyle on May 03, 2007, 09:06:22 AM
the point is that the end of the center bolt (that you tighten & whack) rests on the end of the crankshaft without damaging the threads. 

a couple of grade 8 washers that fit inside the flywheel will work (& if the tip of the bolt is ground to a point it'll center up automaticly)

or a bolt that fits well in the hole & threads, but it'll have to have a small head so it doesn't contact the flwheel.

i think i used a bolt that sat loose in the threads, it was a long time ago & i don't remember..

I think the original bolt will go through the hole. I remember removing the washer, replacing the bolt and breaking it loose with the foot removed from the puller threaded rod. At least the bolt with the washer removed would allow the flywheel to break loose from the taper and then the bolt could be pulled to remove the crank.
To have pounded that rod sideways you must have been hitting the flywheel in the center as well as the outside. Or the puller was made from very low carbon steel.

$0.02
 ;)
Coil
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 03, 2007, 09:18:57 AM
I on the three that I've done, the washer is integrated into the bolt, not separate... otherwise I prolly would have taken the washer off instead or scrounging around for a bolt to fit through the flywheel hole

dj, Don V posted a very comprehensive thread on the flywheel removal. He might have more pics to help you...

basically the three puller bolts go into the flywheel (you got that part) the center rod pushes on the end of the crank (not touching the flywheel) and when you crank and wack... it pulls the flywheel off
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 03, 2007, 09:22:57 AM
Coil - based on the fact that someone already id it as a Harbor Freight POS then it is probably very low carbon and probably not hardened at all.

I'll have to try the flywheel bolt with the washer removed.  after I stop at sears and get a new puller.  :-[

NV - I've checked out Don V's post and thought I new what I was doing.  The problem is that the center bolt on the puller was to wide and didn't fit down in the hole.  It was resting on the flared edge of the hole not on the crankshaft.  I'll be picking up a new puller tonight and then using the center bolt from the flywheel as the washer is not part of the bolt.

Hopefully all goes well tonight for me.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: inanecathode on May 03, 2007, 09:26:57 AM
I think it's worth mentioning that any hard shocking force ie a hammer can soften hardened tools and bolts. Needless to say (even though you know how to use one) hammer blows arent always accurate, and the nature of the way the tool is struck the hammer would tend to try to cock the puller off at an angle.
My two cents is get a BF breaker bar and a BF cheater bar, OR even better, go rent an impact gun and use that instead. The hammering effect of an impact is perfectly radial, no chance of bending the bolt, and they tend to be alot stronger than a hammer would be (sorry dj!).
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Coil Coyle on May 03, 2007, 09:34:16 AM
I on the three that I've done, the washer is integrated into the bolt, not separate... otherwise I prolly would have taken the washer off instead or scrounging around for a bolt to fit through the flywheel hole

dj, Don V posted a very comprehensive thread on the flywheel removal. He might have more pics to help you...

basically the three puller bolts go into the flywheel (you got that part) the center rod pushes on the end of the crank (not touching the flywheel) and when you crank and wack... it pulls the flywheel off

Then I must have replaced the stock bolt with a matching hex head and pressed on the head with the ball that ends the push rod when the foot is removed.

If that was a very strong puller you may have bent your flywheel.

The advantage of the hammer blow is the shock wave that spreads from the crank taper into the flywheel taper and back.



Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 03, 2007, 09:35:49 AM
umm..... I said it could be a HF puller... hope you don't owe someone a Snap-on puller  :o

if you do use the original crank bolt, and it does go through the hole, be careful that you can thread it all the way in flush against the crank... you don't want to bend or snap the bolt or stress any of the treads... or weaken the bolt

that's why I used a shorter sacrificial bolt... or try the washers... or just a nut...

I think you'll gitrdun 2 nite.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: don_vanecek on May 03, 2007, 10:09:54 AM
The sacrificial bolt is the lone bolt in my picture.

Say, I was wondering if anyone has an opinion on this, when I was fooled that my flywheel bolt was all the way back on (but it was not!) are the threads you might say stressed when this is done? I was worried by the amount of force I need to put it back on. I had my torque wrench to 60 lbs the first time I tightened it back up, but I was still 2 or 3 mms short (as I later found out). I was up to 80 lbs the second time before I prayed it was tight and I was also afraid I was going to strip it!

Sign me just curious.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 07, 2007, 07:35:13 AM
Haven’t updated this in a few days, so here goes.

No progress has been made! :(

I have learned not to work on the bike when being distracted by other things.  So, here is the back story about how my end of last week went.

It all started on Friday (which is a non duty day for me (4 by 10’s)) and I had to take the truck to the garage down the street to finally get it reinspected after having it sit in the driveway for 2 months while fixing it.

Well my wife was in front of me in the car with the kids with her and I was driving the truck.  The garage was only maybe 5-8 miles down the road.  Well we get about 2 miles from the house and by then a nice long line of traffic had formed behind us.  We were doing the posted speed limit of 50, but everybody tries to go 60 on that road.  Well we get to the next town, where the garage is, and signal for the left turn and start slowing down do turn into the garages parking lot.

Well the dumbass behind me in line was driving with her head up her ass and smashed into my rear end.  SHE THEN DROVE OFF!  I’m out of the car by then to look at the damage and the car behind her follows her and calls her plate number in to the cops.  About a minute after the accident a cop pulls up, he was farther back in the line of traffic.  He gets out of his car and I explain what happened, gave a description of the car and he radioed it in to dispatch, but by that point the other driver had already called it in and the cops were already chasing her down.  They finally got her stopped about 15 miles up the road doing 80 in a 35.  She pulled over and then started to run!

Well all in all the truck didn’t take much damage.  The bumper isn’t as pretty as it was earlier in the day and the left corner of the bed was crunched in pretty good.  Something off her car actually put a hole in the tailgate, and the tailgate won’t open now (the corner of the bed is pressed up underneath the corner of it.  But nobody got hurt.

Well, this all happened before 0900.  We finally got everything done with the cops and the garage started working on fixing what needed to be fixed to get the truck inspected.  Truck is back on the road and LEGAL now.

So later on in the day I start back in on trying to get the flywheel off the bike.  Beautiful weather out, with only a slight cool breeze.  I put the puller on the flywheel and tighten it down, give it a smack, tighten it down, give it a smack...  I do this for about 10 minutes and all a sudden one of the bolts comes shooting out of the flywheel like a bullet.  I find the puller bolt and go oh cr@p as I can see that it pulled the threads from the hole along with it.

So not only is the flywheel still on the bike, but one of the holes is stripped out.  I don’t know if this was something I did or if the threads in the hole were weakened from the last debacle with my father-in-laws puller that I bent.  So now, I am trying to decide whether or not I should go out and buy a tap set or just take it somewhere now that the truck is back on the road.

Sorry for being so long winded.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 07, 2007, 08:19:04 AM
I went back through all the posts and saw that Comatt did wish you luck... not sure if it was enough... so here's 'smor...

good luck....

I just don't what else to say.. 
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 07, 2007, 08:26:19 AM
Okay, here is some questions.

How hard is it to use a tap and how do you use one?  How much do tap sets usually cost?

I am figuring that with my curent string of "luck" with the bike I am better off just to rent a small trailer and get the bike over to the bike shop.  Still haven't decided yet.  My grandfather might have a tap set and I might be able to get my father to come over some day this week to help me, he was a mechanic in the military and is very good with vehicles.  He hasn't worked on bikes before, but he can do just about anything with working on a cage.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: inanecathode on May 07, 2007, 12:37:37 PM
Not sure if using heat on a flywheel is kosher or not, but thats always helped when i have something stuck.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 07, 2007, 12:48:33 PM
Not sure if using heat on a flywheel is kosher or not, but thats always helped when i have something stuck.

Cathode - I don't think the flywheel is actually stuck.  I think my problems are all steming from the fact that when I was using my father-in-laws puller I forgot to use a bolt for the puller to push on.  So the original puller was putting way to much stress on the three holes instead of putting the pressure on the drive shaft to pull the flywheel off.

What I am most worried about is that the other two holes are weakened as well and that they may strip out.

Would it be a good idea to tap all three holes out to make sure that they will be able to handle the stress of the puller?  I think I am just going to cut my loses and put the bike in the shop.  There is a local shop that is run by a fellow Air Guard member and he makes sure to take good care of the Air Force/Army people in the area.  He gives a discount on labor charges and also on buying parts.  Depending on the type of part we can get it for as little as 15-20% above his cost.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 07, 2007, 04:46:59 PM
This may be an option for whoever you take the V to. Let them decide what the best way to get that puppy off...

...... but they make a different type of puller that could possibly work. The other type of puller I'm thinking about has two claws that grab onto the backside of what you're trying to pull off and still has the center rod. I think it's just called a gear puller? I used one to take the harmonic balancer off the 944 I had when I did the timing belt and water pump.

my brain is mush right now and can't do better than that description... maybe someone else can step in and opine if that would even work and the correct name.

Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 07, 2007, 04:56:39 PM
NV - my brain is mush to right now.  So we are on the same wavelength.  I know what a gear puller is.  However, the Haynes manual specifically states not to use a gear puller as "damage will be caused"...

I left a message for the guy on base to just get a rough estimate of how long of a wait before he'll be able to work on it and how much I'll be looking at for labor.  Not worried about parts because I don't think there is to much that is wrong with the starter clutch.  Most likely the bolts are loose or the springs are weak (as Lucky suggested).  Hardware kits for the starter clutch run for around 35-40 dollars online.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Tiger on May 07, 2007, 05:02:54 PM
:) N_V...its a gear puller ;) They come in several different size's. I use a 3 jaw, 6" gear puller...(Looks like one of those crane's that grab soft toy's at the fair's ;D :D :D)...Works really well and you dont use the three threaded holes in the flywheel...or two in DJ's case ;D ;D :D :D :D :D... ;) I prefer this type of puller.

                     
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Lucky on May 07, 2007, 05:50:56 PM
I'd say if the Haynes manual says don't use it, don't.  my experience as a mechanic agrees.

my suggestion:
have the shop tap the hole for a larger bolt, i wouldn't go helicoil on this one, but you might go to an american size just because 1) the taps are more redily avalable, & 2) you may be able to go up a size without going too far (i.e. the next american size may be halfway between the next metric...follow?) a 'half size' bolt should still fit in the puller too.

have the shop do it because they are more experienced at it. probably a good idea to have them do all three.

BE SURE THEY DON'T DRILL TOO FAR & DAMMAGE THE STARTER CLUTCH COVER. make this clear to them (people don't listen)

i'd say at this point have them use an impact gun to pull the balancer off. they are halfway there with the job anyway.  if your friend is really a friend, he will let you be there & learn, as well as make sure what you've learned here is properly applied.  it's your bike & you are paying them, so you be on top of things.

--Lucky
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 07, 2007, 09:23:29 PM
:) N_V...its a gear puller ;) They come in several different size's. I use a 3 jaw, 6" gear puller...(Looks like one of those crane's that grab soft toy's at the fair's ;D :D :D)...Works really well and you dont use the three threaded holes in the flywheel...or two in DJ's case ;D ;D :D :D :D :D... ;) I prefer this type of puller.

so Tiger; you have used the 3 jawed puller to remove the flywheel?
and not suffered any noticeable damage?

honestly, I can see the 3 jawed puller being a viable alternative, bypassing the venerable threaded holes (like all those fancy words? I unmushed my brain by taking SmokeBomb for a spin tonight, first ride since last Sunday  :D )

the only damage I could foresee is not getting the jaws pass the edges of the magnetic part of the flywheel.. (I don't have one in front of me to look at, so I'm going by memory) seems like if the jaws were engaged far enough into/onto the back side of the flywheel, it would be the same as pulling on the three holes...

dj/Lucky... I'm not trying to go against somebody else's better judgment.... I'm just curious
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Tiger on May 08, 2007, 06:01:32 AM
so Tiger; you have used the 3 jawed puller to remove the flywheel? and not suffered any noticeable damage?

 :) Correct, on both counts 8) I've used the three jaw puller 2 or 3 times now for the "V" flywheel removal and (personally) prefer this type compared to a harmonic puller...which I also have. You have to make sure that the 3 jaws are properly located and everything is in line before tightening the center bolt and I do this with an impact gun...makes for an easier/quicker job, (the old hands have a touch of some form of arthritis ::) )
I (personally) see no reason not to use this kind of puller...just my experience as... ;) But hey, I've been wrong before, sooooo......

                                 
8).......TIGER....... 8)



Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 08, 2007, 07:01:02 AM
BE SURE THEY DON'T DRILL TOO FAR & DAMMAGE THE STARTER CLUTCH COVER. make this clear to them (people don't listen)
i'd say at this point have them use an impact gun to pull the balancer off. they are halfway there with the job anyway.--Lucky

I'm going to make this point crystal clear for them.

Got a question for you Lucky.  The bike shop that I am going to be taking my V to most likely doesn't have any manuals for this bike.  Would it be okay if I lent them my CD so they can have use of a Haynes manual while working on the bike?  I'll make sure to tell them not to copy anything.

Or would you prefer that I just print out the sections that they might need?
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Lucky on May 08, 2007, 07:45:46 AM
i'd prefer to only sell them to ROV members, you can print out the pages for him.  when they ask where you got the service manual, tell them you have a great support group   ;D

ok Tiger, if it worked for you, that's good to know!

--Lucky
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 08, 2007, 08:20:08 AM
Sounds good Lucky.  I'll just print out the small sections that they will need.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 10, 2007, 09:43:22 AM
so Tiger; you have used the 3 jawed puller to remove the flywheel? and not suffered any noticeable damage?

 :) Correct, on both counts 8) I've used the three jaw puller 2 or 3 times now for the "V" flywheel removal and (personally) prefer this type compared to a harmonic puller...which I also have. You have to make sure that the 3 jaws are properly located and everything is in line before tightening the center bolt and I do this with an impact gun...makes for an easier/quicker job, (the old hands have a touch of some form of arthritis ::) )
I (personally) see no reason not to use this kind of puller...just my experience as... ;) But hey, I've been wrong before, sooooo......

                                 
8).......TIGER....... 8)


Tiger - where do the jaws need to be placed to be "properly placed".  I am having my wife pick up a 6" gear puller to try it your way.  I am assuming that you still need to put a bolt through the center of the flywheel to push on with the puller.  Let me know if there is anything specific that needs to be done to use this type of puller.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Tiger on May 10, 2007, 03:36:52 PM
Tiger - where do the jaws need to be placed to be "properly placed".  I am having my wife pick up a 6" gear puller to try it your way.  I am assuming that you still need to put a bolt through the center of the flywheel to push on with the puller.  Let me know if there is anything specific that needs to be done to use this type of puller.
:) d.j...You need to make sure the THREE jaws sit nice and snug against the rear of the flywheel and the puller bolt is center to the shaft.

Snug it and square it up by hand/eye, then gradually tighten up with your tool of choice...Hand wrench, socket, impact wrench...Once you have a  goodly amount of tightness  :P...you should be alternating between tightening and giving the flywheel one good whack with a decent size of hammer, (dead blow preferred but not mandatory ;) )

Be very aware of what you are doing because when it lets loose you DO NOT want any of your body parts in the way :o Trust me, I think the flywheel is 50% of the "V"s weight!!! but flies like an I.C.B.M. ;D :D :D :D... ;)

 ;) I put a couple of old sheets and bath towels under the "V" to catch the flywheel/springs/roller/s...finger(s), etc.

Good luck and keep us posted...

                                 
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 10, 2007, 03:41:09 PM
The wife said that she can pick it up on tuesday when I get paid.  Until then I'll have to just putter around with taking the tank off and trying to get the petcock out.  It is busted, but the darn screws that hold it on the tank are all screwed up.  I'll also take the carbs off and check them out to see if they need to be cleaned again.  And I still need to remount the fairing.  So I have a few things to tide me over until tuesday night when she gets the puller.

I am also supposed to be mowing the lawn tonight, but I don't know how much I'll feel like doing that, I could be using the light to work on the bike!  ;D
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Tiger on May 10, 2007, 03:55:44 PM
I am also supposed to be mowing the lawn tonight...
Quote

...As long as you don't smoke the grass... :o ;D ;D :D :D :D :D :D... ;) (Re other post!!!). Hmmmm, then again :D :D... ;)

                                   
8).......TIGER....... 8)
                 
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 10, 2007, 04:05:40 PM
I am also supposed to be mowing the lawn tonight...
Quote

...As long as you don't smoke the grass... :o ;D ;D :D :D :D :D :D... ;) (Re other post!!!). Hmmmm, then again :D :D... ;)

                                   
8).......TIGER....... 8)
                 

Tiger, I'm in the military. I can't be doing that.  Never know what type of effect the dandylions will have on you if you smoke them!  :o
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 14, 2007, 08:05:01 AM
Well, didn't get a chance to work on the bike much this weekend.  :'(

I had to work on yard work on Friday and Saturday.  Suday I went to church in the morning and stopped off at my in-laws house for awhile.  My wife and I are boarding our pony over in their barn.  Had to muck the stall out.

Borrowed a gear puller from my father-in-law, but it was to small and the jaws were the old wide type so they wouldn't have slipped in behind the flywheel anyway.

Still need to get the tank off and check the carbs out (cleaned them last year, but want to check them again anyway).  Also need to try and get the petcock of the tank.

Also have to schedule the truck to go to the body shop this week when the insurance check comes in.  Got rearended in a hit and run (the cops found the idiot though) and trashed the bumber and the left side of the bed.  Did over $3,000.00 dollars worth of damage to the rear end.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: inanecathode on May 14, 2007, 11:29:58 AM
Muck!
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 14, 2007, 11:36:32 AM
Muck!

Yeah it is a nice way of saying that I had to shovel out the sh!t and p!ssed on shavings.  ;D  The   joys of having animals.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: inanecathode on May 14, 2007, 08:04:26 PM
Muck!

Yeah it is a nice way of saying that I had to shovel out the sh!t and p!ssed on shavings.  ;D  The   joys of having animals.

You muck in a mine after you shoot down rocks too :D
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 15, 2007, 09:51:34 AM
Well, I actually got to do some work on the bike last night.  Not on the flywheel/starter clutch, but some other stuff that I’ve been meaning to do for awhile.

Took the tank off (cause the petcock is junk) and drained out some nasty gas.  I guess I forgot to drain the tank last winter.  So I also took off the carbs to clean them out again.  Noticed the carb boots are in horrid condition, so I pulled them (going to replace them).

Also took the seat off so I could finally mount my backrest/luggage rack on the bike.  Looks great and pics will be coming soon.  I don’t have a clue what it is for a back rest as the guy that I bought the V off of bought it and couldn’t remember where he got it.  Looks great, but it was a pain in the back to get it on there.

I also checked the brake tensioner bar bolts.  They look fine, but I don’t trust them so I am ordering new ones.

I also don’t like the look of the clutch cable, throttle cable, and choke cable.  They are starting to show their age and I don’t trust old cables.  Brake lines look great still.

I do have a question though.  I want to update the fuse panel with the fuse block, but don’t know where to get this stuff.  Would the local auto parts store carry these?

Next steps are to get the gear puller tonight to get the flywheel off, look at the starter clutch and see what is going on with it.  And to get the bike running!

After all that I’ll be doing something with the paint.  Looks like I can’t do what I wanted to do with the paint job.  I was planning on keeping the blue and silver theme and having the new Air Force symbol on the top of the tank, but apparently it is a registered trademark and you can’t use it on permanent applications with out written permission.  So I started looking around the site for tips on dyi painting of the bike and I think I am going to try what DaveTN did with his bike.  Not the same color though.  www.paintforcars.com has a nice looking dark blue (midnight blue) that I like that would make it close to the color that it is now.  I’d still have to repaint everything, but it would look a hell of a lot better then it does now.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: YellowJacket! on May 15, 2007, 10:11:05 AM
DJ,

If you cant use a permanent emblem, what about a sticker or a magnetic emblem?

David
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 15, 2007, 10:56:17 AM
I was planning on using a decal, but I haven't been able to find one.  I know they are out there, but I have no clue as to where to get them.  Just have to keep looking.

My plan was to have the tank painted, put the decal on, and then clear coat over it so that the decal wouldn't get all messed up with scrathes and stuff.  So even the decal would be "permanent".  I could put the decal over the clear coat, so then it wouldn't be permanent.  But I still need to paint the tank, and it will be a lot less money to do it myself.  I have a nice air compressor that I can get a sprayer nozzle for to do the painting with.  Just have to look around and see where to get the spray nozzle from.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 15, 2007, 11:51:13 AM
Dave - I just noticed on the paint site that all the good colors that I was looking at are "METALLIC".  How much of a difficulty jump are we talking when comparing regular to metallic?  Can you strain out the metallic flakes to make it "regular" paint for use in a normal sprayer?
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: h2olawyer on May 15, 2007, 12:18:27 PM
You might send a PM to reckon.  He's a paint expert.  He's put up a couple posts about painting.  I know he highly recommends a paint gun from Harbor Freight.  It's an HVLP unit, part #90977-OVGA.  He says it sprays metalflake real well.  I'm planning on getting this gun in the next day or two and begin spraying the Pumpkin Project.

His painting posts have numerous excellent tips.  Make sure you do the prep work well - makes a huge difference in the finished surface.  Spray a test panel to make sure everything is flowing correctly & use it to adjust the gun settings as well.

With your compressor & paint gun, you need an air dryer of some sort as well.  You want to remove as much water from the air as possible.  Beyond that, I'm as much a newbie to spray gun painting as you are.

H2O
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 15, 2007, 12:31:21 PM
Wow, I just checked out that spray gun.  $60!  ;D  Thats even in my price range.  Looks like I'll be painting my own bike instead of spending several hundred to get it touched up.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: YellowJacket! on May 15, 2007, 12:41:01 PM
Dave - I just noticed on the paint site that all the good colors that I was looking at are "METALLIC".  How much of a difficulty jump are we talking when comparing regular to metallic?  Can you strain out the metallic flakes to make it "regular" paint for use in a normal sprayer?

The only painting experience I have is the job I did on my bike, so I'm by no means an expert....but I did sleep in a Holiday inn....once. (couldn't resist that)
I used the sunshine yellow which does not have any metallic component to it.  I did learn though that you need constant pressure and a water trap to get good results.  I had neither, so I had to add a lot of sanding and re-doing until it looked good.

heh heh... I'm at a local auto shop getting an oil change and they provide free wifi.  Cool.

David
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 15, 2007, 12:46:50 PM

heh heh... I'm at a local auto shop getting an oil change and they provide free wifi.  Cool.

David

Just like a kid in a candy store.  Just give Dave something fun to do with computers and he giggles like a school girl!  ;)
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: inanecathode on May 15, 2007, 01:37:24 PM
I paid 23 dollars for my entire painting setup. Whats the secret? Rustoleum roll on paint :D
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 15, 2007, 01:40:22 PM
I paid 23 dollars for my entire painting setup. Whats the secret? Rustoleum roll on paint :D

Rustoleum?  I didn't know they made automotive paint?  Where did you buy it?  What colors did you have to chose from?
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Brian Moffet on May 15, 2007, 01:41:54 PM
Rustoleum?  I didn't know they made automotive paint?  Where did you buy it?  What colors did you have to chose from?

I hope you're joking :)  They don't make automotive paint.  They make this weird stuff that seems to work really well for a lot of different uses, including auto paint (and in my case frame paint  ;D )

Brian (bought mine from the local hardware store!)
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 15, 2007, 01:47:09 PM
Rustoleum?  I didn't know they made automotive paint?  Where did you buy it?  What colors did you have to chose from?

I hope you're joking :)  They don't make automotive paint.  They make this weird stuff that seems to work really well for a lot of different uses, including auto paint (and in my case frame paint  ;D )

Brian (bought mine from the local hardware store!)

Spray or roll on?  How well does it hold up against gas?  Any high temp stuff (pipes/engine  ???)  What is the stuff called/what type of paint is it?
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: inanecathode on May 15, 2007, 02:01:02 PM
Its not high heat or anything, its just a single stage enamel paint that comes in quart and gallon sizes. They have tonnes of colors, google rustoleum, their website has all the colors. It's just like house paint how it comes in cans, just use it as is, or in the case of our uses thin it WAY down and either brush/roll it on, and work up (wet sanding) from 400 to 800 to 1500 then polish using polishing compound and a buffer (bought the buffer for my headlights on my car for 20 bucks, 5 bucks for the polishing compound)
I think its just a regular enamel, but rustoleum says its some super rust prohibiting formula, which it is, but it doesnt seem too special outside of that. They have alot of really cool colors too.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Brian Moffet on May 15, 2007, 02:02:23 PM
I bought spray-on (rattle can) Appliance paint in gloss black.  It seems to hold up fairly well to gas when dry (it takes forever to harden completely)  I'm not sure I would want to put it on something that is constantly in contact with fuel.

Brian
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: inanecathode on May 15, 2007, 02:05:37 PM
Aye yea, im not sure how rustoleum holds up to gas when totally cured. It IS oil based so, i can see how constant exposure (maybe soaking as apposed to occasional dousing) would destroy it.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: h2olawyer on May 15, 2007, 02:28:22 PM
I am going a different route on Pumpkin.  A select few know the color & paint I'm using.  I'll post details after I do the paint job - if it ever decides to dry out for a few days around here.  I am using a paint meant for vehicles & it was a whopping $14 per quart!  I've seen things painted with this same stuff remain outdoors for many years without the amount of fading you might expect.  It will fade & chalk, but it polishes up just fine.

If you need to know what it is before I paint & post, send me a PM.  I'm wanting it to be a surprise.  Color choices are somewhat limited, though.

I used Krylon rattlecan BBQ paint on the MACs (aluminium colour).  Turned out pretty good.  Scratched them a bit during installation, but I can easily touch them up.

H2O
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 15, 2007, 03:03:35 PM
I am using a paint meant for vehicles & it was a whopping $14 per quart!

If you need to know what it is before I paint & post, send me a PM.  I'm wanting it to be a surprise.  Color choices are somewhat limited, though.
H2O

PM sent.  Don't need to know the color, but the type of paint would be nice.  I might decide to do the painting soon since everything is torn apart right now.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 16, 2007, 12:03:00 PM
Well for all you people following my “progress”, here is an update.

THE FLYWHEEL IS STILL ON THE BIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  >:( >:( >:(

I picked up a gear puller from sears last night and tried it, but it just wouldn’t fit on there right.  Tried every configuration with the stupid thing and I can only get 2 of the 3 jaws to slip over properly.  Tried it in 2 jaw configuration, but I can’t get the jaws evenly spaced on the flywheel so that it doesn’t slip off to the side.  >:( >:( >:(

So the puller is getting returned tonight.  Hopefully I don’t have any problems with that.

I called over to the bike shop that I go to every once in a while when I am completely stuck on something, and the owner said it would be a minimum 3-4 weeks before I could schedule to drop the bike off and then up to a week after that before he could start on it.  5-6 week wait!  :o :o :o No way.

I called the auto parts store and had them set aside a 3/8th tap, t-wrench, and a can of the Berryman’s (also have to clean the carbs :-[) for my wife to pick up later this evening.  I’ll have to swing over to the hardware store to pick up some 3/8th X 4” bolts for when I am done tapping out the hole(s).

Now I’ll just have to wait for the rain to let up a bit.  I don’t mind working when it is a light drizzle, but when it is coming down really hard I don’t even bother trying to do anything outside.  I’ve got pretty good rain gear (military issue), but it is a pain to try and work on something and have the hood up on my gortex jacket as it just gets in the way.

So if everybody can say some prayers for me and my bike for a successful flywheel operation it would be much appreciated.  It would be more appreciated if someone where to come up and help me (I’ll pay for the gas!!!).   ;D
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Lucky on May 16, 2007, 01:45:16 PM
I think, don't go too long on the bolts, back them up with a stack of washers if needed. i think if the bolts are excessivly long, the flex & take some of the shock out of the hammer blows.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: inanecathode on May 17, 2007, 12:24:07 AM
I can sympathize with the weather, h2o probably can too now that i think of it <_<
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: h2olawyer on May 17, 2007, 12:33:38 AM
Weather at my house hasn't been too bad - at least when I'm gone . . .  Seems like it's beautiful for weekends & raint from Monday through Thursday.  I've been going to various auto race events on long weekends & keeping tabs on the weather while I'm gone.  Sure enough - sunny, warm & dry the entire time I'm gone.  Get home & the rains come.  Supposed to happen again this week.   ::)

H2O
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: kwells on May 17, 2007, 12:42:11 AM
yeah...I've been watching that too.  I've been trying to take the bike to work and this damn desert weather doesn't seem to be acting like a desert.  Was nice as hell today though so I took the 65 mile route to work going from Lookout Mtn to Conifer to Centennial.  Looks like it might be another tossup for tomorrow's weather.  Will check it before I leave but will probably chance it anyway. 
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 17, 2007, 11:26:10 AM
Hopefully the weather will cooperate so I can get some work done on the bike.  I have the tap and wrench to be able to retap the holes out.  I have the new puller bolts, and I have the tool to be able to get the phillips head screws out for the petcock.

As long as I don't screw anything up while I tap the holes I should have the flywheel off by friday evening.  Wish me luck, and pray for the sun to come back some point soon in the North East.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 17, 2007, 10:16:30 PM
Okay, I am getting really frustrated with this "easy fix".

>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

The flywheel is still on the farking bike!  What am I doing wrong?

Here is what I've done tonight to mess things up.

I retaped the hole to 3/8th which was the next size up that I could get.  I got the 3/8th bolts and tried to use the harmonic balancer puller.  After awhile it seemed like the flywheel was starting to budge a bit so I kept at it.  And then the same hole that I taped out spit the new bolt out!

I then called up Sears to see if they had a 2 jaw puller as the 3 jaw puller wont fit on (not enough clearance on all three sides).  They did and I picked it up.

I started back in on the bike.  Took 2 hours of working on it and the flywheel kept getting closer to the end of the bolt that goes through the flywheel.  So I think great it must be coming off.  I loosen the puller and back the flywheel bolt back out and tighten the puller back up for round two.  It takes about 10 minutes this time and the bolt is again flush against the flywheel, but it hasn't moved out any farther.  So by now I am thinking "what the f@ck".  I take the puller off and back the flywheel bolt all the way out and low and behold the threads are rounded over and the bolt was just sliding in the hole.

>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

The only good thing is I didn't completly mess up the threads on the inside as the bolt still threads in and out.  Not sure yet whether or not I'll be able to torque it down properly or not, but I'll worry about that after I get the flywheel off.

So once again what am I doing wrong?  Everyone says this is such and easy fix, but I seem to be having a really hard time with it!  I must be missing something.  I have read through the section in the Haynes manual about a dozen times and I don't see anything about putting a bolt back through the hole in the flywheel.  Why is this done and where does the puller actually pull against on the shaft?

I am thoroughly confused and getting really pissed at myself for not understanding what to do.

PLEASE HELP ME OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I am just about on my last straw with this!
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: inanecathode on May 17, 2007, 10:17:49 PM
Heat, lots and lots, you're kinda at the end of the 'how to get a flywheel off' rope here.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 17, 2007, 10:48:37 PM
Okay, I've calmed down a little since my "rant", but not much.  Blood pressure is probably through the ceiling right now.

I've looked through the pics in the manual and it looks to me that the threaded part in the middle of the flywheel is actually the "woodruff key" thing.  Does the puller actually press on this when taking the flywheel off, and if so why does everyone suggest putting a bolt back in the threads?

Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Lucky on May 17, 2007, 11:17:45 PM
the area highlited in red is what you want the center puller bolt of the puller to rest against.  forget the crancshaft bolt, just leave it out, & you'll have to just get caveman on that center puller bolt...
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 17, 2007, 11:19:53 PM
Thanks for the help Lucky.  That is what I figured after what happened tonight.  I'll go try it and see how it goes.

Hopefully I didn't screw the threads up on the inside to much.  Not sure how I would fix that if I did.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 17, 2007, 11:38:14 PM
THE FLYWHEEL IS OFF!  I REPEAT THE FLYWHEEL IS OFF!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Only one cap and roller came out and the spring for it stayed in the starter clutch.  I don't seem to have the proper allen wrench for the 3 bolts, but I'll pick those up in the morning.  I'll inspect the rollers and springs, but by the first glance everything looks good.

I put the puller back on and tightened it down gave it 2 whacks, tightened it down some more and one good wack and it flew off (almost cliping my knee).  The darn thing flew about 3-4 feet from the bike when she popped off.

ICBM was right!

ANOTHER BIG THANK YOU TO LUCKY!
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: inanecathode on May 17, 2007, 11:39:22 PM
Right on!
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 17, 2007, 11:44:12 PM
nuts, I was just about to tell you the secret.....

dj.. I was about to cancel my trip to OnROV and come up ther instead....

NOT   ;D

I'm going to go have a beer I'm so happy for ya ...TTFN
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 17, 2007, 11:46:53 PM
So far I have definetly put a lot of sweat and blood into this bike.  Banged two more knuckles tonight.  One was dripping blood all over the puller while I was getting the flywheel off.

If I knew my bike was a blood sucker then I would've made sure to wear gloves while working on her.  In the past three days I have banged every knuckle and scrapped up all but my little fingers on both hands.  Drawn blood from 4 knuckles and had one of them dripping blood down my hand for over 20 minutes.  I need to start working on her more during the daylight so I can actually see what I am doing for a change.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 17, 2007, 11:49:31 PM
nuts, I was just about to tell you the secret.....

dj.. I was about to cancel my trip to OnROV and come up ther instead....

NOT   ;D

I'm going to go have a beer I'm so happy for ya ...TTFN

I already know the secret...  If at first you don't succeed then don't f*ck up the next time.  Although it took me about 5 different nights of working on her during 2 weeks to manage to not f*ck up.

Thanks for thinking of me....  I would have offered to buy you a months worth of beer and pay for your gas!  But oh well.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Night Vision on May 17, 2007, 11:55:13 PM
well, now you and your V are blood brothers...

good job there Jimmy V! (read my sig-line)
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Lucky on May 18, 2007, 12:18:24 AM
...Bows deeply...

I can picture the madman dance of joy you did when it came off, & your neighbors peeking thru the curtains dialing 9....1....

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: Tiger on May 18, 2007, 06:41:13 AM
8) Now that you have lost blood, sweat 'n tear's over and on your Vision... ;D I guarantee you will really enjoy your "V" once on the road ;D ;D :D :D :D :D... ;) This is part of the road to enlightenment , grasshopper... :D :D :D BTW...We have all, at some point, done the madman dance of joy you did when it came off, & had neighbors peeking thru the curtains dialing 9....1.... ;D ;D :D :D :D :D :D :D... ;) Happy day's again...well done 8)

                       
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: don_vanecek on May 18, 2007, 11:28:37 AM
I tell you although I did not have all your troubles I really wondered it the flywheel was EVER going to come off before something else was broke!

Now don't get suckered like I did putting it back on and then finding out you really don't have it all the way back on! I still have to wonder if my threads on the crank weren't missed up alittle-was getting scary how much force I was using to screw it back on.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 18, 2007, 12:24:05 PM
Starter clutch bolts are out.  I inspected the rollers, caps, and springs and there is nothing wrong with them that I could see.  I have every thing back on the flywheel, minus the new bolts as I'll have to pick them up tomorrow.

I'll be workingon the carbs and petcock today (need to get it off the tank first though).  Anybody know where to get a petcock rebuild kit from?  I'll be checking on ebay today.

I should be having my parts put on order by the end of today.  (carb boots, new throttle and clutch cable, rear brake tensioner bar bolts and hardware...)

I'll be picking up the paint probably monday or tuesday to start getting things ready to paint.  I'll wait until I have everything back together and running before I start working on the paint though.  My main priority is to get the bike on the road and running good, then I'll worry about the paint.
Title: Re: Wish me luck/starter clutch, updated with pictures.
Post by: dj on May 19, 2007, 08:36:12 PM
Okay, well some more progress has been made.  I bought the new starter clutch bolts this morning.  I cut them down and put a generous amount of red locktight on them, and peened the ends.  I'll be going out to put the flywheel back on the bike.

I am assuming that I just fit it back over the woodruff key, tap it on and then torque it down until it is all the way back on.

I have the carbs all done and ready to go back on the bike.  I'll be ordering some new carb boots and some misc. items, but the old boots should be good enough to test things out and see if the bike wants to start now that the starter clutch is fixed.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired and ready to go back on the bike!
Post by: GT @ oh. on May 19, 2007, 09:02:26 PM
Well Done :)
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired and ready to go back on the bike!
Post by: dj on May 19, 2007, 09:06:30 PM
It might (read did) take me longer then the average person would with this (getting the darn flywheel off), but I am way to stubborn for my own good sometimes.  Just in this case it actually should pay off to be stubborn.  I just need to get the flywheel back on after I get some food in my stomach (still haven't had supper yet).  I've been getting the kids fed and ready for bed.

I can't wait to get back outside and get the flywheel back on the bike.  I can't believe that it took me two weeks to get the flywheel off and after one day I am putting it back on.   ;D  Just doesn't seem right for some reason. ::)
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired and ready to go back on the bike!
Post by: inanecathode on May 19, 2007, 11:04:33 PM
All you need is rov! *da nanananaaaa* All you need is rov, rov. All you need is rov.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired and ready to go back on the bike!
Post by: dj on May 20, 2007, 06:37:27 PM
All you need is rov! *da nanananaaaa* All you need is rov, rov. All you need is rov.

LOL!!!

Haven't made any more progress on the bike yet.  It started raining again last night, so I put off putting the flywheel back on the bike until today.  Well after church this morning the truck started to make a squeeling noise, so I thought the power steering fluid was low.  Stopped off and bought some and opened the hood of the truck to top off the steering fluid and a bunch of steam rolled out of the engine and coolant was gushing out of the truck.  Drove the truck over to my father-in-law's house and let the truck cool off and let things dry up a bit so I could see where the coolant was leaking from.

Well it looks like the new water pump that we just replaced 18 months ago is now needing to be replaced.  Back at home after a very tense 15 mile drive, hoping the whole time that the truck didn't seize up on me.  The temp stayed in a tolarable range (didn't get above 230).

Gotta get the kids some food and then hopefully get the flywheel back on the bike.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired and ready to go back on the bike!
Post by: inanecathode on May 20, 2007, 07:10:31 PM
Cars < kids < vision

Priorities man, priorities.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired and ready to go back on the bike!
Post by: dj on May 20, 2007, 09:19:46 PM
Well, things don't look so good right now.  The shaft where the bolt and washer go to torque down the flywheel/starter clutch is stripped out.   :'( :'( :'(

So, what are my options?  Is this fixable, does anybody have this part if it can't be fixed, and what am I looking at getting into if I have to replace this part (full engine dissasemble???)?

Please give me some advice as to what I need to do next.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: inanecathode on May 20, 2007, 09:29:14 PM
This is just thinking outloud, but it might be possible to re-tap the hole you have now.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 20, 2007, 09:30:47 PM
This is just thinking outloud, but it might be possible to re-tap the hole you have now.

I'm hoping that this is the case.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Night Vision on May 20, 2007, 09:42:50 PM
do a google or eBay search on " thread chaser "
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 20, 2007, 09:48:57 PM
do a google or eBay search on " thread chaser "

Never heard of a tread chaser before.  I'm not sure what I am looking for.  I've gone through a few pages of a google search and have no idea what I am looking at.  Please help!
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Lucky on May 20, 2007, 09:51:41 PM
the piece the flywheel slides on, & the bolt goes into is the crankshaft.

first, have you stripped out the threads on the bolt or the threads the crankshaft?

you have 3 choices:

1) if it's the bolt, replace it with a bolt of the same grade.
2) if it's the crankshaft, tap it out to the next size
3) if it's the crankshaft, use a helicoil insert.

if it's the bolt, it's an easy fix, get a new bolt.
if it's the crankshaft, i'd go with the helicoil.  they are made to take the torque intended for the size bolt, and are stronger than the missing material. they WORK and are really not a big deal to install.

--Lucky
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 20, 2007, 09:55:13 PM
Thanks Lucky.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Night Vision on May 20, 2007, 09:59:42 PM
you might be able to get away with something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-14-18-mm-Spark-Plug-Thread-Chaser-Tool_W0QQitemZ280115530419QQihZ018QQcategoryZ82248QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

but you need to find a 10mm x 1.25 pitch one...

I'm just throwing this out there to see what anyone else thinks... you really aren't cutting new threads... just cleaning up the ones that are snickered...
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 20, 2007, 10:13:48 PM
you might be able to get away with something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-14-18-mm-Spark-Plug-Thread-Chaser-Tool_W0QQitemZ280115530419QQihZ018QQcategoryZ82248QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

but you need to find a 10mm x 1.25 pitch one...

I'm just throwing this out there to see what anyone else thinks... you really aren't cutting new threads... just cleaning up the ones that are snickered...

Thanks for the idea NV.  I'm not sure if the threads are stripped out or if they are just rounded over.  All I know is that when I was torqueing down the bolt it would get tight and then feel loose again (like it is stripped).
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Lucky on May 20, 2007, 10:26:39 PM
the thing with a thread chaser is that you need to have threads left to chase, & then appliying torque to those threads is a bad idea.  you need good, fully formed threads to apply signifigant torque.  spark plugs take what? 12lbs of torque, flywheel bolt is probably more in the neighborhood of 55lbs or so.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 20, 2007, 10:30:40 PM
the piece the flywheel slides on, & the bolt goes into is the crankshaft.

first, have you stripped out the threads on the bolt or the threads the crankshaft?

you have 3 choices:

1) if it's the bolt, replace it with a bolt of the same grade.
2) if it's the crankshaft, tap it out to the next size
3) if it's the crankshaft, use a helicoil insert.

if it's the bolt, it's an easy fix, get a new bolt.
if it's the crankshaft, i'd go with the helicoil.  they are made to take the torque intended for the size bolt, and are stronger than the missing material. they WORK and are really not a big deal to install.

--Lucky

Okay Lucky, I just checked things out.  I knew that the threads on the bolt were rounded over, but I just took a long look at the threads on the crankshaft and they are just about non-existent.  Can barely tell that there were threads in there to begin with.

So it looks like I need a new bolt and the helicoil thingy.  I'll have to look around and see where to get them.  Any idea what size I am looking for?  I have no idea what a helicoil is, so like the chaser I don't really know what I should be looking for.  There aren't even enough threads to even worry about trying to clean up.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Lucky on May 20, 2007, 10:36:31 PM
i have to look this up, hang on...

the size is M10 x 1.25 torque is 58 ft lbs (80 nm)

get one with a hardness rating of at least 8

how to use a helicoil:
http://www.roadstarmagazine.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=233
the page takes a bit to load

--Lucky
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 20, 2007, 10:43:40 PM
Thanks Lucky.  I am doing so reading online to find out how these things work and how to install them.  Looks pretty straight forward, but so did the starter clutch repair!  :o
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 20, 2007, 10:58:53 PM
Lucky (and all the rest of you experts out there),

     Since the threads on the crankshaft and bolt are all fubar'ed and I'll have to tap out the hole anyway to use the helicoil why wouldn't I just tap the hole out to the next size up and geta new bolt?  Just asking as I already have the tap wrench, but I would need to find a tap for the new bolt.

     Since the original bolt is a 10mm X 1.25 pitch would I want to find an 11mm X 1.25 pitch?  Would that be the next size up to use.  Would that be enough of a jump up in size to make good threads for the bolt that I'll need to get?

     Let me know if this makes sense, or if my brain is finally turning to mush from the lack of decent sleep.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Lucky on May 20, 2007, 11:32:22 PM
KISS  don't complicate things with a larger bolt (making the crankshaft wall thinner, larger bolt means higher torque, plus next commonly ava size up is 12mm, big diff....  larger diameter bolt with the same length means that achiving the same torque strength requires a much higher torque, etc, etc, etc...)
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Tiger on May 21, 2007, 08:19:07 AM
??? Whoa, back up a wee bit...just thinking out loud here, so bare with me...

1 - How would you manage to strip the thread's in the shaft...The puller doesn't enter into the shaft, however, the first few threads can be damaged when using a puller and can be re-tapped or cleaned up with a thread chaser.

2 - Not sure how the shaft bolt would get stripped either, however, before you do anything else, buy a new bolt and right size washer, re-install by hand, tighten/torque down...and let us know the result before going any further... ;)

                     
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 21, 2007, 08:27:07 AM
??? Whoa, back up a wee bit...just thinking out loud here, so bare with me...

1 - How would you manage to strip the thread's in the shaft...The puller doesn't enter into the shaft, however, the first few threads can be damaged when using a puller and can be re-tapped or cleaned up with a thread chaser.

2 - Not sure how the shaft bolt would get stripped either, however, before you do anything else, buy a new bolt and right size washer, re-install by hand, tighten/torque down...and let us know the result before going any further... ;)

                     
8).......TIGER....... 8)


Tiger - short answer because I am an idiot when it comes to working on vehicles.

Long answer, I thought I knew what I was doing with taking the flywheel off, but was sadly mistaken.  I kept reading people posting that you had to put a bolt back through the crankshaft to have the puller push up against.  So I put the bolt back in about 3/4 of the way back into the crankshaft and then hooked the puller up.  Well in the process of using the puller it would up rolling the threads over on the bolt and almost completly desimating the threads on the inside of the crankshaft instead of popping off the flywheel.

I was finally able to get the flywheel off when I tried it with out the bolt in the crankshaft, but by then the damage was done.

The problem is that the threads in the shaft are non-existant thanks to me having my head up my @$$ and not asking enough questions to know if I was doing things properly.  So even though I will need to buy a new bolt it wont help with my problem very much as there isn't anything even closely resembling threads in the shaft for the new bolt to tighten on with.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Tiger on May 21, 2007, 09:22:06 AM
:)O.K. now I understand how it happened...and your NOT an idiot. We all have to go thru' a learning curve, as most of the experienced guy's will attest to...we have all made some major error's of judgment, (big screw ups), at some point and still will on occasion... ;) The trick is to learn by them and exact a repair...and you have a couple of option's available.

1 - Buy a metric thread repair kit...like helicoil or an equivalent. This is the best way. You will have to drill out, tap, thread in the insert, etc...

2 - Another way, given that you will have to drill and re-tap the hole (as in #1), would be to drill & tap it out to the next STANDARD bolt size, (I don't have a conversion chart handy!!)...say 7/16th... ;)

                                 
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 21, 2007, 11:08:42 AM
i have to look this up, hang on...

the size is M10 x 1.25 torque is 58 ft lbs (80 nm)

get one with a hardness rating of at least 8

how to use a helicoil:
http://www.roadstarmagazine.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=233
the page takes a bit to load

--Lucky

Thanks for the link Lucky.  I'm printing it out right now so I can read it and then I'll ask any questions about things that I don't understand fully.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 21, 2007, 02:02:56 PM
Well I called around and Advanced Autoparts stocks the M10X1.25 pitch helicoil kit (with the drill bit) for about $20, unfortunately they are out of stock until Wednesday.  So looks like I'll be dubbing around with some other things for the next few days.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: inanecathode on May 21, 2007, 09:15:54 PM
Well I called around and Advanced Autoparts stocks the M10X1.25 pitch helicoil kit (with the drill bit) for about $20, unfortunately they are out of stock until Wednesday.  So looks like I'll be dubbing around with some other things for the next few days.

Is your V as shiny and clean as it can possibly get? If not, perhaps a bit of scrub-a-dub-dubbing is in order to take your mind off the mechanical end of things?
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 22, 2007, 07:12:44 AM
Is your V as shiny and clean as it can possibly get? If not, perhaps a bit of scrub-a-dub-dubbing is in order to take your mind off the mechanical end of things?

Wish I could, but I gotta work on the waterpump in the truck.  I was working on it last night (for 10 whole minutes) and my wife comes out and says she just got called into work.  So much for getting the truck back on the road.   ::)

I'll probably be picking up a new fuse block with the helicoil kit on wednesday or thursday as that will give me a good side project to work on if the helicoil causes me to start going into fits.  Anybody know what the different fuses under the seat are rated?
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: inanecathode on May 22, 2007, 10:07:33 AM
Should be a sticker under each fuse in the standard fuse box. I'll go run out and look real fast.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Night Vision on May 22, 2007, 10:08:52 AM
they are all 10a except the main which is 30a.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: inanecathode on May 22, 2007, 10:12:18 AM
Beat me to it! Blast! Anyway, heres what mine says, top to bottom:
30A Main
10A Head
10A Signal
10A Ignition
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 22, 2007, 10:13:54 AM
Thanks guys.  I'll have to call around and see who has the fuse boxes.  Is there a special crimper that I'll need to use to put the wires in the fuse box?
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: inanecathode on May 22, 2007, 10:15:03 AM
Don't see why a pair of needle noses shouldnt do ya :D
When you're done, come over and do mine.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Night Vision on May 22, 2007, 11:14:50 AM
..... Is there a special crimper that I'll need to use to put the wires in the fuse box?

the blade box I got had male connectors. I got female connectors at ACE Place that I crimped onto the wire using a special tool called a "crimping tool". you can find these crimpers in combination with wire strippers at any good auto store or maybe even radio shack. this combination tool is called a "strimper"  ::) jk dj  ;)

Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 22, 2007, 11:40:48 AM
..... Is there a special crimper that I'll need to use to put the wires in the fuse box?
the blade box I got had male connectors. I got female connectors at ACE Place that I crimped onto the wire using a special tool called a "crimping tool". you can find these crimpers in combination with wire strippers at any good auto store or maybe even radio shack. this combination tool is called a "strimper"  ::) jk dj  ;)

Smarta$$  ;), I was just wondering if there was a special crimper that needed to be used.  I am very familiar with the crimper/stripper combos as I use them quite frequently at work (radio maintenance technician) when I install vehicle radios (which I am actually doing today).
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: inanecathode on May 22, 2007, 11:58:07 AM
Lol, strimper. New name for them, thanks NV!
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 22, 2007, 12:20:25 PM
Lol, strimper. New name for them, thanks NV!

Inane, don't encourage him.  He is already bad enough!   ;D  jk NV, you know we all love you! ::)
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Night Vision on May 22, 2007, 12:59:08 PM
just make sure you don't buy a cheap one,

those are called..... "scrimpers" and are easily confused with the higher quality "strimpers"
  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 22, 2007, 03:11:04 PM
just make sure you don't buy a cheap one,

those are called..... "scrimpers" and are easily confused with the higher quality "strimpers"
  ;D ;D ;D

You are on a roll today NV.   ;D
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Night Vision on May 22, 2007, 06:14:07 PM
hot dog!
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: Tiger on May 22, 2007, 06:18:00 PM
:)...and don't forget the fuse in the headlight bucket ::) Get a pack of 10 amp ATO Blade fuse's for this and the three under the seat, also a fuse holder to replace the one in the headlight bucket, (rad' fan fuse)... ;)

...and N_V...ROLL OVER ;D ;D :D :D :D :D... ;)

                             
8)........TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 22, 2007, 11:20:04 PM
..and N_V...ROLL OVER ;D ;D :D :D :D :D... ;)

You guys have got to stop encouraging his behavior.  How will he ever grow up if you keep rewarding his behavior???   ;)

We all know that not a single one of us have "grown up" yet.  Just look at how much time and effort we put into keeping our "toys" in working order.   ;D
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: inanecathode on May 23, 2007, 01:34:51 AM
Gah, you people. Theres something in the forum water today or something i swear.
Laquer thinner must be wafting from my computer to yoose guyses.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 23, 2007, 08:45:04 AM
Gah, you people. Theres something in the forum water today or something i swear.
Laquer thinner must be wafting from my computer to yoose guyses.

 ;D ;D ;D

Don't be stingy, keep the fumes coming!
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: inanecathode on May 23, 2007, 10:25:06 AM
No fumes until you help me paint.
By help me paint i mean bring me a coke.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 23, 2007, 11:47:09 AM
No fumes until you help me paint.
By help me paint i mean bring me a coke.

Okay, if I leave know with the coke I think I could get it to you in about a week.   ::)  I think it would be all warm and nasty by then so I'll just stay home.   ;D
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: inanecathode on May 23, 2007, 11:50:53 AM
Lol good plan. Wouldnt like the weather here anyway :D
Get that crank bolt thing figured yet? What all needs to be done?
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 23, 2007, 12:29:42 PM
Lol good plan. Wouldnt like the weather here anyway :D
Get that crank bolt thing figured yet? What all needs to be done?

Still waiting for the helicoil kit to arrive at the part store.  They carry them, but when I called on monday they were all out and the next shipment is coming in today at some point.  I'll be calling over to them in about an hour to see if it came in yet.

What needs to be done is I have to drill out the hole (with the bit from the kit) and then tap out the hole and insert the helicoil.  after that I install a new bolt M10X1.25 pitch bolt and put the flywheel back on the bike.  I am still waiting for my parts order to come in from the bike shop (carb boots and gasket, throttle cable, clutch cable, brake tensioner bar bolts, crank case gasket...) and then I'll need to pick up a new shift lever bolt (6mm bolt that is 20mm long).

After that I have to put everything back together and see if she wants to wake up from her long nap.  ;D
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, but the threads in the shaft are stripped out!
Post by: dj on May 26, 2007, 09:26:02 PM
Well, I finally made some more progress on my V.   ;D ;D ;D

I spent the past few days working on my truck's waterpump, and I think I finally got it all straightened out.  And on top of that the weather was great for working outside today.  Nice and sunny, but not blistering hot with a nice breeze to keep things cool.

I got out the helicoil kit and drill and started working on the threads in the crankshaft.  After about 2 hours of drilling out the crankshaft (I took things nice and slow to make sure that the drill was level and making a good smooth area for the new threads).  I then tapped the hole out and spent about 30 minutes gettingout all the metal bits after using the tap.  Screwed in the helicoil and removed the tang from it.  Now I just need to remember where I put the new crankshaft bolt.   ??? :-[ ;).

All in all I was really nervous about drilling the crankshaft, but everything went great and I am almost ready to start putting everything back together.  My new carb boots, bolt kit for the brake bar, throttle and clutch cables, and gasket should be in by the end of next week.  So by next weekend I should have everything back together and hopefully have some good news about my V waking up from her nap.  I'll make sure to keep everybody posted as to my progress.

Oh, and by the way I may have a project bike soon.   ;D ;D ;D Just have to convince the wife to let me spend a few hundred bucks to pay for it and gas to go get it.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: inanecathode on May 27, 2007, 12:26:12 AM
Don't let your V see your new project bike. Guarantee you your V will break again in some fashion.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: dj on May 27, 2007, 03:31:57 PM
Don't let your V see your new project bike. Guarantee you your V will break again in some fashion.

Still working on getting the kitchen pass from the wife, and then it'll most likely still be a few weeks before pickup could be arranged.  It is a nice looking 82 with the 83 full fairing.  Needs a bunch of work done to it by the pics, but it definetly has a lot of potential.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: dj on May 29, 2007, 04:25:22 PM
Well no progress has been made in the past few days as I am currently waiting on my parts order.  Once my parts come in I'll put everything back together and pop in a new fully charged battery and see what she does.

On other fronts things are looking good right now for obtaining the kitchen pass for the project bike.  I'll make sure to pay for the bike quick before the wife changes her mind if she goes for this one.  She was all excited about getting the bike from Scott_Mc, and then she changed her mind right when Scott and I were trying to get things coordinated to meet.

I am hoping my parts come in by the end of the week, although even if they do I still wont be able to work on things much.  I am spending the next 3 days working at a Living History museum that I volunteer at.  I have been working in the blacksmith shop with 2 other smiths for the past 4-5 years (one of the guys is my father-in-law).  At the beggining of the season we have "Children's days" were all the local schools come in (5-8 grades) and see how people used to live in the 1700's (although with the set up of the blacksmith shop it is closer to early 1800's).  The kids love seeing us work the hot metal (we are always the most visited area, with the been-hole-been pit being the second favorite.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: dj on June 04, 2007, 08:18:16 AM
I haven’t been very “productive” when it comes to getting my bike on the road.  I’m still waiting for my parts order to come in from the parts store.  Plus I have been using just about every day light hour for the past several weeks trying to keep the cages on the road. 

First the truck’s water pump gives up the ghost.  My dad and I change that out and then we deal with a darn hose that won’t sit on the output line of the water pump properly.  Takes about 2 days of working on that to get it to seal properly with the clamp on it.  Two days after getting the truck back on the road the car craps out.  I had to leave work early yesterday to go pick my wife up because the tranny is slipping in and out of gear when it is driving.  So tonight I get to work with my dad (my personal mechanic) on draining, flushing, and replacing the fluid and filter for the tranny.  We are hopping that the old filter is just clogging up, instead of the tranny being cr@p.

We won’t know however until after we change out the fluid and the filter.  We are hoping this fixes it as it really wont be cost effective to replace the tranny in a 91 Subaru Legacy.  Tranny probably costs more then the vehicle is worth. 

On top of that the other car (2000 Ford Focus) needs a new clutch because my wife likes to ride the clutch pedal way to much.  I kept telling her that if she didn’t stop riding the clutch that she was going to burn it up.  Well, about 6 months ago I get a call at work from her cell phone saying the Focus is stuck in neutral and there is a burning smell coming from under the hood.  Guess what, she burnt up the !@%!@#$%!$% clutch.  Although I would have loved to do the whole I told you so thing, I knew better then to say it.  Even though I was right, I still would have been a mean a$$ for saying it.  ::)
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: Tanno on June 06, 2007, 11:37:15 PM
DJ, where are you ordering the carb parts from? And the carb "boot" is the "intake manifold", correct? (The rubber piece between the carb and the head.)
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: dj on June 07, 2007, 07:16:52 AM
DJ, where are you ordering the carb parts from? And the carb "boot" is the "intake manifold", correct? (The rubber piece between the carb and the head.)

Tanno, I am ordering the "carb boot/intake manifolds" from a friends bike parts shop.  He gives me a discount of 20% above his cost, and they all come from the Yamaha warehouse just like the dealers when they order the parts.  Yes the boots are the intake manifolds, they are the rubber pieces between the carb and the intakes on the engine (there is also a set of gaskets that need to be ordered with them as they don't come with them.

I don't have the part numbers right off hand, but if you have check out the yamaha website you can get to the exploded parts listing and get the old part number.  The guys/gals at the parts counter can look it up and get the current part number for them (front and back are different part numbers).  I believe they are running about $50 each (maybe less then that).
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: inanecathode on June 07, 2007, 11:58:21 AM
Bike bandits carries the boots as well. 66 dollars and change a piece, and 6 bucks and change a piece for the gaskets.
I know this from experience   :-X
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: kwells on June 07, 2007, 12:35:13 PM
 :'(
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: dj on June 07, 2007, 01:09:02 PM
Bike bandits carries the boots as well. 66 dollars and change a piece, and 6 bucks and change a piece for the gaskets.
I know this from experience   :-X

I payed around $30 and change for each (with my discount), so I can't complain to much.  The bolts for the BTB were .35 a peice, the nuts were like .10 a piece, clutch cable was like $20, throttle cable was $14.75 (which is discontinued so I am getting a refund on that one), left side gasket was like $5...  All in all I spent about $150 bucks were it would have cost me over $300 for the same items thru the stealer.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: inanecathode on June 07, 2007, 03:38:08 PM
o_O
dj is our new parts supplier :D
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: dj on June 07, 2007, 03:47:51 PM
o_O
dj is our new parts supplier :D

As long as there aren't a huge influx of orders.  I think he would get suspicious if I kept ordering a lot of the same items.

 ;D
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: dj on June 07, 2007, 04:01:19 PM
Checked in with the parts store and my parts order is in, so it looks like I can get some work in on getting the bike pieced back together this weekend.

I'll be posting my progress, as long as it doesn't rain to much I should be able to get things all put back together and see if she fires up.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: Night Vision on June 07, 2007, 04:25:03 PM

As long as there aren't a huge influx of orders.  I think he would get suspicious if I kept ordering a lot of the same items.


oh, I don't know.... I've seen you go through a couple of starter seals  ::) and fly wheel pullers, and.....
 ;D
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, and so is the crankshaft threads
Post by: dj on June 07, 2007, 04:30:59 PM

As long as there aren't a huge influx of orders.  I think he would get suspicious if I kept ordering a lot of the same items.


oh, I don't know.... I've seen you go through a couple of starter seals  ::) and fly wheel pullers, and.....
 ;D

Ouch, my balls have just been busted by that "low blow".  Damn NV why you gotta be so mean?  ::)

(Just remember who the seal killer is of the forum...)
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, crankshaft threads fixed, and parts finally came in!
Post by: Night Vision on June 07, 2007, 08:14:34 PM
I'm sorry dj, that post was buggin me the rest of the day since I posted it...

been thinking that Maine isn't really that far from NY and I've seen what you can do with a hammer  :D

I think you need a challenge..... get your V to my house in September and we can be friends  :-*
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, crankshaft threads fixed, and parts finally came in!
Post by: dj on June 07, 2007, 09:04:47 PM
I'm sorry dj, that post was buggin me the rest of the day since I posted it...

been thinking that Maine isn't really that far from NY and I've seen what you can do with a hammer  :D

I think you need a challenge..... get your V to my house in September and we can be friends  :-*

My smithing hammer is only 2.5 pounds, but when you factor in that I lift it approx 5-6 thousand times in a weekend up to the living history museum then you better watch out for my hammer hand!  People say that getting punched by a blacksmith is like getting kicked by a mean spirited donkey.   ;D

If I can get the darn thing running, then I might just take you up on that offer.  As long as you stop making kissey faces at me!  :o
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, crankshaft threads fixed, and parts finally came
Post by: inanecathode on June 07, 2007, 09:11:47 PM
A... jackass if you will?
Sorry had to say it :x
*runs*
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, crankshaft threads fixed, and parts finally came
Post by: dj on June 07, 2007, 09:22:54 PM
A... jackass if you will?
Sorry had to say it :x
*runs*

Since your new I'll hit you with my non hammer hand!  ::)
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, crankshaft threads fixed, and parts finally came in!
Post by: dj on June 08, 2007, 01:38:19 PM
Well, I have been making some really good progress this morning.

Flywheel is back on the bike.  New gasket applied and crankcase is back on.  New carb boots have been installed.  Carbs are back on the bike.  Working on hooking everything back up.  I have a questions though.

On the front carb, according to lucky's diagram from the cd, there is a hose that should go from the carb to the air box.  I don't see where it would hook up to on the airbox.  There are only two connections for the air box and they are both bigger tubes coming from the engine block.

Brain cramp.  The right side of the front carb goes to the top of the airbox.  Nevermind the question.  I just need to find my piece of hose to cap off the other port on the front carb.
Title: Re: Starter clutch is repaired, crankshaft threads fixed, and parts finally came
Post by: kwells on June 08, 2007, 02:16:01 PM
the front carb doesnt go to the box...but goes to a 'air breather'...small round thing with some holes. I think the picture is just showing that the top of the carb goes into the airbox...sort of points out the obvious....ah..oh yeah there is a vacuum line that goes to the vacuum actuator...opens and closes the flapper....of course this assumes you have an Upgraded box.
Title: Re: Everything is put back together and it still wont start! Starter clutch fixed.
Post by: dj on June 09, 2007, 09:02:02 AM
Well, as you can tell by the way that I changed the thread title I am still having issues.

I did the starter clutch repair and put everything back together.  Tried to start it and I can hear the starter motor turning and it feels like the flywheel is turing, but it won't crank over.

12.6 at the battery.  Tried jumping it straight to the starter motor and had the same results.  What should I do now?
Title: Re: Everything is put back together and it still wont start! Starter clutch fixed.
Post by: dj on June 11, 2007, 07:15:41 AM
Well, my bike must be a woman (sorry to the ladies in the group) but no matter how much a I beg and plead with her she just will not start.

Truck battery was at 12.4ish, bike battery was at 9.5ish.  I tried jumping it going from the bike battery, and also from the starter connection.  She turns over and seems like she wants to start but wont "fire up"

Not sure if it is a lack of spark or lack of gas at the moment.  I'll be checking the plugs when I get home from work, and I'll also be getting out my spare set of carbs to put on the bike if the spark is good.

If this doens't work then I'll try to bump start it and see if she wants to wake up that way.
Title: Re: Everything is put back together and it still wont start! Starter clutch fixed.
Post by: Lucky on June 11, 2007, 07:50:25 AM
but your clutch is grabing now right?

couple of things to keep in mind:

the TCI needs 9.5 -10V while cranking, to fire the coils, so keep your meter on the battery while cranking & keep an eye on it.

give it a shot of carb cleaner before you crank it see if it fires, even just a bit. if so, then it's a fuel delivery problem.

you, of course, need good spark to run the bike, but it should fire even with a weak spark
Title: Re: Everything is put back together and it still wont start! Starter clutch fixed.
Post by: dj on June 11, 2007, 08:13:34 AM
but your clutch is grabing now right?Yes the starter clutch is grabbing now.

couple of things to keep in mind:

the TCI needs 9.5 -10V while cranking, to fire the coils, so keep your meter on the battery while cranking & keep an eye on it. with the truck battery as the jump battery I was reading 12 even on the bike battery with the key on, didn't check what it was dropping to when trying to start it.  I'll check that out tonight.

give it a shot of carb cleaner before you crank it see if it fires, even just a bit. if so, then it's a fuel delivery problem.  I'll see if this works.  I'll also have my spare carbs ready and waiting to go on the bike if it does point to something in the carbs.  I know fuel is comming out of the petcock, but what I don't know is if it is leaving the float bowls (I checked the bowls and both have gas in them)

you, of course, need good spark to run the bike, but it should fire even with a weak spark
Title: Re: Everything is put back together and it still wont start! Starter clutch fixed.
Post by: QBS on June 11, 2007, 10:08:57 AM
Put a shot of starting fluid (either)directly down both carb throats.  If you've got any spark at all the bike will run, at least until the either is burned up.  This can be done with the top of the air cleaner off.  Of course, the bike won't run well with the top off, but it will at least send vacuum signals throughout the carb bodies and maybe get things a little more responsive.  Cheers.
Title: Re: Everything is put back together and it still wont start! Starter clutch fixed.
Post by: dj on June 11, 2007, 10:20:37 AM
Put a shot of starting fluid (either)directly down both carb throats.  If you've got any spark at all the bike will run, at least until the either is burned up.  This can be done with the top of the air cleaner off.  Of course, the bike won't run well with the top off, but it will at least send vacuum signals throughout the carb bodies and maybe get things a little more responsive.  Cheers.

I'll give that a try as that will give me an indication of whether I have spark.  If it doens't ignite the ether then I'll know to check spark plugs/wires.
Title: Re: Everything is put back together and it still wont start! Starter clutch fixed.
Post by: Tanno on June 12, 2007, 10:27:11 PM
Wouldn't it be quicker just to pull the plugs and check for spark first?
Title: Re: Everything is put back together and it still wont start! Starter clutch fix
Post by: inanecathode on June 13, 2007, 01:57:15 AM
Wouldn't it be quicker just to pull the plugs and check for spark first?

Rear cylinder sure :D
Title: Re: Everything is put back together and it still wont start! Starter clutch fix
Post by: dj on June 13, 2007, 07:07:19 AM
Wouldn't it be quicker just to pull the plugs and check for spark first?

Rear cylinder sure :D

It aint easy to get the spark plugs out.  Very tight fit.  My problem is that the spark plug caps are toasted. 12K Ohms resistance on one of them and the other was a solid open (max Ohms).  No wonder it wont start, there was no spark!

New plug caps are on order and hopfully will arive on thursday as expected.  I might be able to ride the bike this weekend!!!!  Yipeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Title: Re: Everything is put back together and it still wont start! Starter clutch fix
Post by: inanecathode on June 13, 2007, 02:21:09 PM
Wouldn't it be quicker just to pull the plugs and check for spark first?

Rear cylinder sure :D

It aint easy to get the spark plugs out.  Very tight fit.  My problem is that the spark plug caps are toasted. 12K Ohms resistance on one of them and the other was a solid open (max Ohms).  No wonder it wont start, there was no spark!

New plug caps are on order and hopfully will arive on thursday as expected.  I might be able to ride the bike this weekend!!!!  Yipeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Don't jinx yourself dude!
Title: Re: Everything is put back together and it still wont start! Starter clutch fix
Post by: dj on June 13, 2007, 02:22:14 PM
Wouldn't it be quicker just to pull the plugs and check for spark first?

Rear cylinder sure :D

It aint easy to get the spark plugs out.  Very tight fit.  My problem is that the spark plug caps are toasted. 12K Ohms resistance on one of them and the other was a solid open (max Ohms).  No wonder it wont start, there was no spark!

New plug caps are on order and hopfully will arive on thursday as expected.  I might be able to ride the bike this weekend!!!!  Yipeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Don't jinx yourself dude!

I didn't say it out loud, so the gremlins can't hear it.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... wouldn't start becuase the caps are toast (new ones on order)
Post by: Tanno on June 13, 2007, 02:45:25 PM
They can read your mind also. Just "goto" your happy place, Gilmore.  :D
Title: Re: Starter clutch... wouldn't start becuase the caps are toast (new ones on order)
Post by: dj on June 13, 2007, 02:47:41 PM
They can read your mind also. Just "goto" your happy place, Gilmore.  :D

Hopefully Shooter isn't there.  ;)
Title: Re: Starter clutch... wouldn't start becuase the caps are toast (new ones on order)
Post by: dj on June 14, 2007, 12:39:05 PM
Called the bike shop and my new plug caps should be in today.  He said that according to the delivery notification that he got that they should arive early afternoon and to call him back around 3.  So looks like I might get the bike to start this weekend.  Maybe even a text ride!!!
Title: Re: Starter clutch... wouldn't start becuase the caps are toast (new ones on order)
Post by: inanecathode on June 14, 2007, 02:54:54 PM
You sure they're not on BACKORDER!?!??!!!
Title: Re: Starter clutch... wouldn't start becuase the caps are toast (new ones on order)
Post by: dj on June 14, 2007, 03:00:48 PM
You sure they're not on BACKORDER!?!??!!!

I dont know...  I'll be calling the bike shop in about 2 minutes to see if they are in yet.  Might not be in till tomorrow, but the shiping number showed that it should be delivered today.

Just got off the phone with him and they are in.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... wouldn't start becuase the caps are toast (new ones on order)
Post by: Tiger on June 14, 2007, 06:24:12 PM
Just got off the phone with him and they are in.

 8) Go get 'em and lets "hear" some good news... ;)
Title: Re: Starter clutch... wouldn't start becuase the caps are toast (new ones on order)
Post by: dj on June 17, 2007, 06:19:09 PM
Good news and bad news and worse news.

The bad news is I spent the whole weekend over at my parents house helping my dad and my broter replace the tranny in his mustang.  The good news is the tranny is almost done.

The worse news is I still can't get the darn bike to fire.  Got a brand new battery and a Battery Tender 800 for fathers day (the fully waterproog model).  I wish it was the 1.5 amp instead of the 800mA (it takes forever to charge the battery), but it works okay.

I need to pull the plugs, but I can't find the darn plug socket anywhere.  No one carries the 18mm spark plug socket.  I'll have to see if I can find it at one of the bike dealers or I'll have to go with an 18mm deep weel socket and be really carefull.  I have a feeling that the plugs that are in there are resistor plugs.  The caps I got were resistor caps (5kOhms), and if the plugs are resistor plugs then it will never fire.  I'll have to get the socket monday night and check the plugs resistance.

Even with the battery fully charged it still drops below 10 volts under load, so that is leading me to think that the plugs have a high resistance and is causing a larger then normal voltage drop through the line, which is making the battery not have enough "juice" (even fully charged) to fire them off.  I don't even think push starting it would help at this point, although it might.

Should I try push starting the bike and see if that will let it fire?  I'll have to let the battery charge up some more as I kinda drained it down a bit trying to start the bike.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Lucky on June 17, 2007, 08:37:15 PM
high resistance in the secondary circuit wouldn't drop the battery. your battery just isn't fully charged. try starting it jumped off the car.
to fire this bike, you need to have it cranking quickly.


check to be sure your plugs are firing.  ACE has a spark plug wrench kit
either this one:
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1273514&cp=&pg=4&sr=1&origkw=spark+plug&kw=spark+plug&parentPage=search&searchId=20847327484
or this one:
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1275097&cp=&pg=3&sr=1&origkw=spark+plug&kw=spark+plug&parentPage=search&searchId=20847331454
matches 18mm, i forget, but i think it's the first one.
this tool is identical to the one in the Yammaha tool kit.

with the plug in the boot, & the threads grounded (hold it with something INSULATED) crank the bike & see if it sparks.
if so, try some either/carb cleaner sprayed down the carbs.

--Lucky
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on June 17, 2007, 08:47:58 PM
high resistance in the secondary circuit wouldn't drop the battery. your battery just isn't fully charged. try starting it jumped off the car.
to fire this bike, you need to have it cranking quickly.


check to be sure your plugs are firing.  ACE has a spark plug wrench kit
either this one:
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1273514&cp=&pg=4&sr=1&origkw=spark+plug&kw=spark+plug&parentPage=search&searchId=20847327484
or this one:
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1275097&cp=&pg=3&sr=1&origkw=spark+plug&kw=spark+plug&parentPage=search&searchId=20847331454
matches 18mm, i forget, but i think it's the first one.
this tool is identical to the one in the Yammaha tool kit.

with the plug in the boot, & the threads grounded (hold it with something INSULATED) crank the bike & see if it sparks.
if so, try some either/carb cleaner sprayed down the carbs.

--Lucky

already tried the ether with the battery at a steady state 12.5 volts straight off the charger, light fuse pulled and no ignition.  I've checked the spark plug lines and caps and they are at 5kOhms which is what the caps are rated to be at.  So I know I need to check the plugs once I get the spark plug socket.  I was wondering what else could be causing the battery to dropping so quickly when trying to start the bike.  Off of a fully charged battery (brand new 2 day old battery) I only get about 3-4 tries of starting it and then I have to charge the battery.  Doesn't sound normal to me...
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Night Vision on June 17, 2007, 09:12:16 PM
you need to let a new battery charge 18-24 hours... with your charger, maybe longer..after that, you can still use an additional car battery to supplement your cranking hours...

in lieu of the ace spark plug wrench, you can go to sears and get an 18mm deep socket... naked, no insert/rubber and a 3/8in swivel extension... that's what I use.....

on your way back from sears, stop at autozone and get 4 NGK D8EA plugs... accept no other numbers than a straight D8EA

by now, if you are getting gas, your plugs are so fouled it's futile trying to start it....
take the old plugs out, put the new ones in each cap and make sure you are getting a strong blue spark when held up to the case or another ground....

if all this checks, then it should start... unless the carbs are junked up...



Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on June 17, 2007, 09:16:57 PM
you need to let a new battery charge 18-24 hours... with your charger, maybe longer..after that, you can still use an additional car battery to supplement your cranking hours...

in lieu of the ace spark plug wrench, you can go to sears and get an 18mm deep socket... naked, no insert/rubber and a 3/8in swivel extension... that's what I use.....

on your way back from sears, stop at autozone and get 4 NGK D8EA plugs... accept no other numbers than a straight D8EA

by now, if you are getting gas, your plugs are so fouled it's futile trying to start it....
take the old plugs out, put the new ones in each cap and make sure you are getting a strong blue spark when held up to the case or another ground....

if all this checks, then it should start... unless the carbs are junked up...




The battery charged for approx 21 hours, steady green light on the Battery Tender charger, 12.5 volts steady state (no load) when I hooked up for the first time.  Cranks the engine over really strong, but it wont start (most likely no or weak spark).  I'll get the socket and the plugs tommorrow after work and then see what she'll do.

Are the D8EA the non resistor ones???
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Lucky on June 17, 2007, 09:47:19 PM
I just had an epiphany!

You probably won't like it, but it completely fits...

--You had the starter rebuilt,
--You somehow had starter problems,
--Your battery dies quickly.

here's what i'm thinking:

Inside the nose of the starter is a ring gear, a drive gear & 2 planetary gears.  it is possable, & easy to put one or both of the gears in one tooth off.

the starter will still bench test, & will turn the engine too, but it'll pull the battery way down very quickly, & won't turn the engine over as fast as it should.

if left unchecked it'll wallow out the holes the planetary gears ride on. i've done this...

drain the oil & pull the starter, pull the nose off & with a straight edge, check to see that the gears are STRAIGHT accross & in line.  if not, make them so, but carefully examine the holes the gears ride on the pins with.

I know it's a pain, but do this anyway. if i'm right you might catch it before the dammage is done, if you wait & i'm right, starters are getting rare & costly....

if i'm wrong it's only cost you time & you've completely eliminated another possability.

--Lucky


Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Night Vision on June 17, 2007, 09:52:12 PM
Are the D8EA the non resistor ones???

yes,

Lucky has a good point too about the starter... no harm in double checking
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on June 17, 2007, 10:00:48 PM
I just had an epiphany!

You probably won't like it, but it completely fits...

--You had the starter rebuilt,
--You somehow had starter problems,
--Your battery dies quickly.

here's what i'm thinking:

Inside the nose of the starter is a ring gear, a drive gear & 2 planetary gears.  it is possable, & easy to put one or both of the gears in one tooth off.

the starter will still bench test, & will turn the engine too, but it'll pull the battery way down very quickly, & won't turn the engine over as fast as it should.

if left unchecked it'll wallow out the holes the planetary gears ride on. i've done this...

drain the oil & pull the starter, pull the nose off & with a straight edge, check to see that the gears are STRAIGHT accross & in line.  if not, make them so, but carefully examine the holes the gears ride on the pins with.

I know it's a pain, but do this anyway. if i'm right you might catch it before the dammage is done, if you wait & i'm right, starters are getting rare & costly....

if i'm wrong it's only cost you time & you've completely eliminated another possability.

--Lucky




I'll check that first thing tomorrow when I get back with the socket and the plugs.  I can't remember if I checked it the last time with a straigh edge or not, I know I did the first time.  Thanks for the suggestion Lucky.  And thanks for the plug info NV.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on June 18, 2007, 11:08:31 AM
I called around and CarQuest has the plugs.  I'll be picking up 2 sets of them along with a deep well 18mm socket to be able to change out the plugs.  I also have the battery hooked up to the charger off the bike to make sure that when I start working on it tonight that I have a 100% charged battery.  I'm done with messing around... I'm absolutely serious about kicking the ever living sh!t out of the gremlins that are living in my bike.

I gotta hurry up and get this bike on the road as I have another V coming to the "stable" very soon.
Title: New plugs (they spark), checked the starter (looked good), but big problems...
Post by: dj on June 18, 2007, 10:31:27 PM
Okay, so I got the new plugs (checked them for spark and they spark nice and bright blue).  Drained the oil and pulled the starter to see how the gears were lined up, and everything looked good.

So I put everything back together and screwed in the plugs.  Tested things out and it wouldn't turn over very strong.  Got out the jumper cables and hooked up to the truck (NON RUNNING) and hit the starter button.

I held it for maybe 1.5 seconds tops and noticed smoke coming from the starter relay (soleniod) and heard a slight popping sound.  I turned the key off and disconnected the jumper cables, but the damage was done already.

The output line of the soleniod was smoking and the pop sound was the starter wire breaking off the crimp.  For some reason the lines got hot and I mean real hot.

So, what the hell is going on with my bike.  The starer turned freely by hand and bench tested good.  The truck was not running and the total voltage at the bikes battery was 12.5 volts when I tried to start it.  I know I'll have to redo the connection for the starter motor (probably going to order some from Tiger) but what I want to know is if my solenoid fried.

Anybody seen this before???
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Night Vision on June 18, 2007, 10:54:38 PM
I believe I had a sour solenoid because sometimes my bike would charge fine and sometimes it wouldn't. This was after I put in a new stator too. I swapped in a different one and was good for 4,000 miles until my stator cooked.

If you notice, the red wire from the solenoid goes to the positive side of the battery. I'm not an electrical whiz, but logic tells me the entire charging system passes through the starter solenoid.
Logic also tells me the starting process passes through it too...

is it toasted? most likely because you let all the smoke out of it  :o
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on June 18, 2007, 10:57:00 PM
I believe I had a sour solenoid because sometimes my bike would charge fine and sometimes it wouldn't. This was after I put in a new stator too. I swapped in a different one and was good for 4,000 miles until my stator cooked.

If you notice, the red wire from the solenoid goes to the positive side of the battery. I'm not an electrical whiz, but logic tells me the entire charging system passes through the starter solenoid.
Logic also tells me the starting process passes through it too...

is it toasted? most likely because you let all the smoke out of it  :o

Are these soleniods still available or are they made of unobtainium?  I'll have to check and see if anyone has one on the F/S board.  I'll also be contacting Tiger to get some new lines for the solenoid and starter as they have let all the smoke out of them to.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Lucky on June 19, 2007, 12:15:13 AM
sounds like you had high resistance in the battery cables. the check the others as well, plus your ground from the battery to the engine & the harness ground under the left coil.
--Lucky
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Tiger on June 19, 2007, 06:53:31 AM
:) dj...I have what you need... 8) Solenoid and new cable's. pm your name/address and I'll get them out to you.

                             
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on June 19, 2007, 07:00:10 AM
:) dj...I have what you need... 8) Solenoid and new cable's. pm your name/address and I'll get them out to you.

                             
8).......TIGER....... 8)


PM sent.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on June 19, 2007, 07:15:47 AM
Tiger is saving me again.   ;D
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on June 30, 2007, 05:51:04 PM
Another big thanks sent out to Tiger for getting me the cables and solenoid so quickly.  Cables look great.

So I've been working on the bike some more, but still no life in her.  The first problem was when I put the tank and set it to prime.  After about 15 seconds I had gas coming out the drain line again.  This happened last year (stuck float), so I take everything apart again and check and the floats weren't aligned right so it wasn't shutting the gas flow off.  Checked the manual and set the floats to the correct hiegth (I think, the manual is a little foggy on this subject).  Let everything dry out again as it flooded out when I tried to start it.  Pulled the plugs and while letting them dry I decided to check the gap on "pregapped" plugs.  Turns out they were sitting at .032 when they are supposed to be between .024 and .028.  So I set the gap properly and let the gas dry off them.  Once everything is dry I put the plugs back in and tighten them down.

Carbs are all put back together and hopefully the floats are set right, if not then I'll have to pull them again and adjust them again.  The book says that they should be at 1.75", but the picture shows them measuring at 1.5" so I put them at 1.6" to split the difference.

Now I am still waiting for the battery to charge back up from the few times that I tried to start it.  Haven't put the tank back on yet.  I want to try just putting a little bit of gas down into each carb and try to get the bike to start that way.  My main concern right now is to get the bike to fire over and run for a few seconds.  After that I'll put the tank back on and fill the carb bowls and see if I can get it to run for a bit that way.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Night Vision on June 30, 2007, 09:05:12 PM
YICS!!! manual sez 1.72 +/- 0.040in.  ??? ???

1.72"=43.688mm
1.6"=40.64mm

both way high... no wonder you're dumping gaz

the pic in the Haynes manual shows about 1 3/8" which is about 35mm...

pretty sure Lucky recommends 35mm
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Lucky on June 30, 2007, 11:03:29 PM
First, don't confuse fuel level with float hight. fuel hight is measured with the clear tube on the drain screw.

float hight is the measurement at which the float closes the inlet needle. this determines the fuel level in the bowl.

too low & you'll starve the carbs at high acceleration.
too high & you'll spill fuel out of the overflow tubes.

I have found several 82 carbs where the overflow tubes were installed 2-3mm short of what they should be, it seems to be common (poor quality control).  for this reason, if you have experienced fuel overflowing out the drains for no apparent reason, (& everything else has been taken care of, new needle & seat, etc) it's likely you have one of these carbs.

MODIFIED ADJUSTMENT:

with the needle & seat, and the floats installed turn the cover upside down or at least far enough so the floats are fully down. measure the TOP of the float furthest from the pin to the gasket surface on the underside of the bowl cover (without the gasket)

book specs are 36 mm +\- 1mm. 

if your frequently draining Go-Juice:
39 +\- 1mm

I've set up several carbs like this & the difference of 3 mm lower has never made a bit of difference in performance.  Many happy forum members can attest to this...

--Lucky
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Lucky on June 30, 2007, 11:06:20 PM
BTW, 1.72 +/- 0.040in = 36mm +\- .1mm
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Night Vision on July 01, 2007, 08:24:09 AM
BTW, 1.72 +/- 0.040in = 36mm +\- .1mm

no sir, 1 and almost 3/4" IS
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Lucky on July 01, 2007, 09:37:51 AM
by golly (did i actually say 'by golly'!!??) your right!

I've allways gone by the book specs to measure float drop.

Quote Yamaha service manual:
Quote
Float hight 36mm +\- .1mm (1.72 +/- 0.040in)
Haynes says the same thing (copied it i assume)

I've allways used the metric side of the equation (metric bike)

I never noticed the discrepency....

some carb guru huh?  :-[

anyway, i'll stick with my current procedures, they work.

also, 1.6 or 7 inches would be lowering the fuel level in the bowls, not raising it, so he's dumping fuel due to junk in the inlet..

--Lucky
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on July 01, 2007, 03:07:26 PM
by golly (did i actually say 'by golly'!!??) your right!

I've allways gone by the book specs to measure float drop.

Quote Yamaha service manual:
Quote
Float hight 36mm +\- .1mm (1.72 +/- 0.040in)
Haynes says the same thing (copied it i assume)

I've allways used the metric side of the equation (metric bike)

I never noticed the discrepency....

some carb guru huh?  :-[

anyway, i'll stick with my current procedures, they work.

also, 1.6 or 7 inches would be lowering the fuel level in the bowls, not raising it, so he's dumping fuel due to junk in the inlet..

--Lucky

What exactly do you mean by inlet...

I haven't put the tank back on yet.  I am rigging up a small bottle to act as a "fuel tank" as I know the petcock is not working properly (I want to rule out the petcock as the problem).  My plan is to use the bottle to fill the bowls (and use the clear tube trick to  check the level of the fuel) and see if the floats are set right, if not then I will have only used a little bit of fuel as opposed to having it "gush" out with the tank on.  If fuel doesn't come out I plan on trying to run the bike for a bit with the bottle hooked up.  Does this sound logical to anyone else or am I just going out on a limb of the crazy tree?  I am getting pretty stumped by this bike.  I am almost about ready to just put her off to the side and not touch it again until I get the black bike on the 19th.  That one already runs, just needs the carbs cleaned and tuned.  I am working on getting a set of carbs ready to pop into the black bike and then ride that one.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Night Vision on July 01, 2007, 05:02:32 PM

also, 1.6 or 7 inches would be lowering the fuel level in the bowls, not raising it, so he's dumping fuel due to junk in the inlet..


after about 20 miles into my ride this morning I realized I had it backwards... gahhh  :-[ too late to turn back!

the Haynes has the inches listed first
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Lucky on July 03, 2007, 08:15:58 PM
Ok, DJ here we go:

Petcock operation
Prime - fuel flows freely.
On & Res - fuel flows only when petcock is getting vacuume pulses from the intake.

fuel level in the carbs:

set the float level to a touch more than than 1.4 (36 mm) this means when the float is all the way 'up' the inlet needle is closed (inlet needle is the 'pin' the float moves, the 'seat' is the brass piece under it)
you measure float level by removing the top of the carb, without the gasket, turn it upside down & measure fron the underside of the top (gasket surface) to the top edge of the float.

don't worry so much about the fuel level with the tube test. you can do it, but it's not as critical.

do you have a fuel filter installed? you MUST.

is the tank clean & completely free of rust? it must be or you'll trap junk in the petcock too.

let us know how it goes.

--Lucky
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: jasonm. on July 04, 2007, 02:58:45 PM
DJ, even with the petcock on prime. Fuel should not be coming out the overflow tubes. If it does..this issue is level, or needle-seat issues. I have run mine for hours on prime. No gas anywhere but where it should be. Simply,This is because the needle seals the float chamber once the gas level rises enough to lift the floats. Could you have a bad/leaky float?
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on July 06, 2007, 07:19:51 AM
DJ, even with the petcock on prime. Fuel should not be coming out the overflow tubes. If it does..this issue is level, or needle-seat issues. I have run mine for hours on prime. No gas anywhere but where it should be. Simply,This is because the needle seals the float chamber once the gas level rises enough to lift the floats. Could you have a bad/leaky float?

Well, it looks like I have an issue with the needle seals then as I have set the floats to 1.4 inches as per Lucky's instructions and I hooked everything back up last night.  Fresh gas in the tank, set petcock to prime, and after about 30 seconds there was gas coming from the overflow line again.  Shut everything off and called it a night.  I'll be taking everything apart when I get home from work today and see what I can find.  At this point though I don't really no what to look for.  Is there somesort of rubber gasket up where the needle is to help seal things off or does the needle do that all by itself?
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: inanecathode on July 06, 2007, 11:29:38 AM
Theres a seat up inside the brass dealy that the needle seals off. With the carbs off i'd stick a piece of hose over your fuel inlet and push down on the floats and see if theres still air going through. Probably just dirt stuck on the seat. Could be damaged but i doubt it with the age of these bikes. Stick a q-tip in there and rub it around, see if that helps.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on July 06, 2007, 09:35:54 PM
Theres a seat up inside the brass dealy that the needle seals off. With the carbs off i'd stick a piece of hose over your fuel inlet and push down on the floats and see if theres still air going through. Probably just dirt stuck on the seat. Could be damaged but i doubt it with the age of these bikes. Stick a q-tip in there and rub it around, see if that helps.

I tore everything all apart again, and I still can't figure out why excess fuel is coming out the drain line.  I pulled the floats off to check the needles and the little housing thing that it sets in, and they both look fine.  The o-ring on the thing the needle sits in is good, the needle moves freely up and down the slot, and the floats are both adjusted to 1.4 inches per the specs.

I blew air in all of the passages and they are not clogged.  Blowing air in the inlet with the needle and float set up doesn't show me anything.  With the float up no air comes through and when the float is down I can feel the air.

Yet I still have gas coming out the drain line when I put everything back together.  I am completly at a loss for what is going on with these carbs.  And at this rate I am about ready to start kicking the bike.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: inanecathode on July 07, 2007, 12:33:03 AM
Oh! Pfft, doi! Did you check the drain screw needle/seat and oring? If any of those are even slightly bad it'll cause fuel out the drain hose. The drain circuit and the overflow circuit are two different things, it just occured to me that you've got fuel out the drain hose not the overflow. Bad float = overflow. Bad drain screw = drain hose. I had this problem when the rear drain screw o-ring was a bit wonky and the needle was also a bit wonky. Kinda seeped, kinda dripped out both the drain screw itself and the drain hose.
Make absolutely sure the drain screw is seating right, seat it the best you can and blow air back up the drain hose, with the screw in there should be no air passing through it.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Night Vision on July 07, 2007, 08:54:20 AM
he probably doesn't know if its the overflow hose or the drain hose because they both piss out the bottom by the centerstand..

that's a good catch Inane... if it's the drain hose, then that's an easy fix... new o-rings for the screws
if its the overflow hose.... then you either suck it up and buy new carb kits and/or send them out to someone...

Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on July 07, 2007, 09:09:01 AM
Oh! Pfft, doi! Did you check the drain screw needle/seat and oring? If any of those are even slightly bad it'll cause fuel out the drain hose. The drain circuit and the overflow circuit are two different things, it just occured to me that you've got fuel out the drain hose not the overflow. Bad float = overflow. Bad drain screw = drain hose. I had this problem when the rear drain screw o-ring was a bit wonky and the needle was also a bit wonky. Kinda seeped, kinda dripped out both the drain screw itself and the drain hose.
Make absolutely sure the drain screw is seating right, seat it the best you can and blow air back up the drain hose, with the screw in there should be no air passing through it.

Just to make sure that we are all on the same page.  The gas is coming out the hose that is attached to the bottom of both carbs on the left side of the bike.  The hose runs down by the sidestand.  Is this the overflow or the drain line.  I think from what I see in the Haynes manual that this is the drain line.  The drain screws are the flathead screws that are in the back right hand corner of the carbs when looking at the left side of the bike right?  I haven't pulled them yet as the haynes manual kept telling me to check the float assemblies.  I'll go check the line and see what happens when I blow up it.  I'll also have to pull the carbs back out and see how those orings look.  Thanks for the advice inane.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: inanecathode on July 07, 2007, 10:21:34 AM
Yes, those are the drain lines, correct. I'd pull the line off both of them, stick it back on one at a time and give it a blow. Even if it doesnt seem like theres any air going back up the line i'd still pull the screws and look at them and the seat.
It's the one part you havent checked yet, perhaps thats it.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on July 16, 2007, 09:52:05 AM
Well, I haven't been able to do anything with the carbs yet.  The rebuild kits are on order (shipped saturday and should be hear by the end of the week or begginning of next week).

I still have to dip the carbs.  They are completely stripped down now and everything has been blown out with compressed air.  I'll need to pick up another can of compressed air to dry the carbs after I dip them.  I also need to find around 2 hours of free time with out the kids to be able to dip the carbs and dry and reassemble them once the kits come in.

The good news is that on thursday I'll be heading down to NH to pick up the black 82 with the 83 fairing on it.   ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on July 20, 2007, 03:49:25 PM
I am working on dipping the carbs right now.  It says to dip each peice for 20 minutes and then blow them dry with compressed air.  I should have everything dipped and ready for reassembly by the end of the night.  If all goes well I'll be putting them back together and putting them back on the blue and silver bike.

Black "Beauty" will be getting some much needed attention latter this weekend.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: kwells on July 20, 2007, 05:52:43 PM
wish i had a compressor to blow them dry with....I have to resort to my mouth to blow them out and I gotta tell you, that stuff does NOT taste as good as it smells.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Lucky on July 20, 2007, 06:49:14 PM
if nothing else, use canned air.  be sure to rise the dip out of the carbs with a garden hose before blowing them out.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on July 20, 2007, 07:35:35 PM
Carbs have been dipped, rinsed, and reassembled with all new guts (from the kits).  I still need to hook the front and back together, but the kids are getting hungry so supper is cooking and the carbs are on hold.  I might just be able to put them back on the bike tonight.  I wont be able to to much for testing as I need to replace the petcock bolts (that hold it to the tank).

So the carbs are rebuilt and the petcock is rebuilt.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Night Vision on July 20, 2007, 08:20:17 PM
wish i had a compressor to blow them dry with....I have to resort to my mouth to blow them out and I gotta tell you, that stuff does NOT taste as good as it smells.

I have an old Black & Decker "Air Station" that I use for air... couldn't even imagine how many times I've used it...

nice thing is, it has no "reservoir".... no condensation... I hate pumping water into tires at a gas station...
blows out carbs nice too....
Title: Petcock woes. Carbs are rebuilt but I cant test them as the petcock is leaking.
Post by: dj on July 21, 2007, 08:30:11 PM
Well, even after rebuilding the petcock it still leaks.  It is leaking out the bottom just above the drain screw.  It isn't in an area that comes apart as far as I can tell.  I looked at the petcock on Black "Beauty" and hers is leaking to.  I might take the guts from the blue one and swap them over to the black one's as I think it is leaking do to bad gaskets in the black ones.

I'll keep everybody posted, but it looks like I'll be needing to get two new petcocks.  Anybody no where to get some inexpensive petcocks?

EDIT_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Well I just changed the guts over to the other petcock and it is leaking in the same place.  I just looked more closely and they are both leaking from the drain screw on the front of the petcock.  I removed the screws on both petcocks and they are the same screws.  Kinda short and stuby.  Neither one has an o-ring on them.  It would seem logical that they would have an o-ring.

Are the petcock drain screws supposed to have an o-ring on them?  What size (length) is everybodies elses drain screws?
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on July 21, 2007, 08:53:48 PM
Here is a pic to help show where I am talking about.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Lucky on July 21, 2007, 09:14:39 PM
iirc they have a clear/whitish plastic flat o ring to seal them
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: h2olawyer on July 21, 2007, 09:27:18 PM
Take a petcock to your neighborhood 'helpful hardware man' & you should be able to find an o-ring, neoprene or plastic washer that will seal it up.

H2O
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on July 21, 2007, 09:35:21 PM
They do have the white flat thing inside where it screws into, but it isn't sealing properly on either one of them, so either the screws are the wrong ones are both of the flat white orings are bad.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: Lucky on July 21, 2007, 09:39:03 PM
try flipping them over..  the screws sound like the right ones.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on July 21, 2007, 10:13:42 PM
I'll try and flip it in one of them.  Not sure how they come out as I didn't take them out to begin with, but I'll see if I can figure it out.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: kwells on July 21, 2007, 10:23:15 PM
It might sounds stupid but when I PORd my tank and put my petcock back on it too leaked which baffled me.  It turned out the leak wasnt the petcock at all but where the petcock sealed up to the tank.  that oval ring had been smashed down enough to no longer seal right.  The gas was dribbling down the back side of the petcock and I though it was coming from the lower section of the petcock.  You probably already have eliminated that by now but if not it's something to check for.
Title: Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
Post by: dj on July 21, 2007, 11:17:55 PM
Kwells, at this point in time with all I have gone through with the bike I dont count anything out.  I'll double check it tomorrow once my light source comes back up (hopefully there aren't any shades covering it  ::)).