I walked into my work place today and headed out to the shop area where I am keeping my Vision temporarily, and wanted to see why there was a big bubble under the paint just above the petcock. As I poked it with a finishing nail I smelt the tell tale smell of GASOLINE! After I removed the bubbled paint and went to pour myself a cup of coffee, I noticed that the cardboard the tank was sitting on was drenched in fuel. So I emptied the tank and was wondering if I were to use a heat gun to remove the paint around the area if that would be a safe idea. I don't see any reason for an explosion unless I were to ignite the fumes coming from the tank still. Should I just let the tank sit for a few days and let the remainder spoonfulls of fuel evaporate and then do the paint removale?
I would like to repair the area with either a brassing technique or better yet just use some epoxy stick and see if that will work. I have epoxy sticks made by Loctite Fixmaster Metal Magic Steel epoxy which is a 3 minute workable and 10 minute set epoxy. What do you repair techs think of this idea? Otherwise the tank is in good shape with a few scratches in the paint but no dents at all. BTW it seems that this leaking area was repaired before because I can see bondo under the painted area. The metal underneat looks real good. Also the tank seems to be Kreemed.
you can put water/Dawn in the tank to clean out the fuel
Well I spent the last hour or so scraping the paint off with the heat gun and along came the bondo that was used on the tank too. Now there are the classic Vision holes that were patched with what looks like solder. The bigger one (1/16" x 1/4") is on the outside edge between the petcock and the gromet hole. Also a small pinhole on the inside in the same location. The right side lowest corner also was cold soldered by the looks of it, this looks like it is holding up pretty well. There were a few dents on the top that were fixed previously as I could see the spotweld marks there along with a bit of the stick too. Too bad the PO (not Tiger) didn't do as good a job as could have been done. Looks like I will use the epoxy mix on the outside, then see how well it will hold with a water test next week. Then it's into the paintbooth for a little bondo and primer coat.
Next project will be to repair the full fairing I have and sand and prime that as well. I also recieved the left and right side panels today. They are the classic silver colour and have the VISION emblems to boot. (YEAH!!!!!). I'll use some fishing line to cut the adhesive backing so I can remove the emblems and then sand and prime these as well. The original side panels are good but the left side has a crack in it that will have to be fiberglassed and then sanded and primed as well. Then the rear panels underneat the seat aswell as the tail section will be removed snaded and primed. So the bike will be left totaly NAKED untill I get a chance to apply the Hammertone Blue outer coat for the little lady.
Looks like I can make this my summer project as I don't see myself riding this year. Then I will have to find out what my winter project will be. ::)
Someone on the XL board reminded me of an old repair technique , for gas tanks . He tinned the area around the hole(s) and then applied a tinned piece of brass shim stock. this would have to be done with a soldering copper or tinners iron.
I use a product called PC11 to repair side covers . You can even replace missing pieces with this stuff.
Well today I finished scraping the remainder of the paint off of the gun with the aid of my heatgun. I now have two beautiful holes that need to be filled before doing anymore work to the tank.
My question is that I have LOCTITE Metal Magic Steel 10 minute repair epoxy that I want to use on the holes. Is this the same thing as what others reffer to as JB Weld epoxy?
I've never used the Loctite product. I know JB recommends JB STIK for areas that will be in constant contact with fuel. I used it to repair a float pin on a carb & it looks like it will work fantastic. It is more of a two part putty than the JB Weld from tubes. Should be available at any auto parts store for a few bucks.
That said, I used the JB Weld (from tubes) on my tank a long time ago & then used a product much like POR to line the tank. It has held up great ever since.
You might look up the Loctite product on their website & see what their recommendations are for that stuff.
H2O
I did a quick test yesterday. I took a metal Folgers coffee can and pierced the bottom twice with a centerpunch. Then I applied the Magic Steel epoxy stick, after kneeding the two parts together, over the two holes from the bottom of the can. Made sure to press down real good so that some of the epoxy stick mix will penetrate the hole into the inside of the can. Let it sit for an hour or so then poured a cup of gasoline into the inside of the can.
Came back the next morning and lifted the can and there were no stains on the table and the outside of the botom of the can was bone dry. So I applied this stuff to the four holes that I have in this tank and will test it again by pouring the fuel into the tank and letting it sit for the weekend. If no leaks then I will empty the fuel again, and finish cleaning the outside and then do my cosmetic body filler job. Wait a day and prime the tank. Then off to the fairings to sand them and get those primed aswell.
Like I said I will most likely have this thing ready for next year, but I could maybe have it ready by the end of the summer and still get some riding time in, IF my current work place improves over the summer.
Here's the latest saga on this tank on Lucky #7 (looking to be not so lucky afterall >:( )
Last Wednesday I poured some fuel into the tank and let it sit for an hour and noticed some fuel weeping where the original leak was found. It seems that I missed a small pinhole. So stupid lazy me just flips the tank on its side (with what little fuel I poured into it still in it) and cleaned the area and tried to apply some of the magic steel stick epoxy to it. But it seems this stuff doesn't like to stick to things when there is fuel vapour under it. So I emptied the tank and let it stand to dry itself out over the weekend.
I come into work in the morning today and took the heat gun to it again and also the wire brush to clean off the area and what do you think I find. A bloody gash that is about 1/32" x 2 1/4" on the side. Seems to me that the PO had done some soldering of the tank before but didn't do too good a job even with the Kreeming inside. Well I cleaned the surface and the gash real well and used some more of my epoxy stick on the area and will see if this will be the final patch that I have to do. If it holds this time I'll be very happy.
On another note, last Friday I also sanded and primed the original Yamaha fairing mirrors. These will also be painted a hammertone finish. I think the fairing would look very smart with body coloured mirrors just like cars have today. What I need from somebody is a way of getting the mirror boots as mine hade rips in them and are sort of deformed as well. If anyone has a spare good set PM me to let me know.
There was a post within the last 2-3 weeks that contained the web address of a company that claims to have replacements for the Seca 650 Turbo fairing mirror boots. Those boots are the same as our full fairing mirror boots. I even posted a comment to that effect. Some archive searching might do you some good.
:) There yer go...
http://ridersofvision.net/forum/zindex.php?topic=8776.0
8).......TIGER....... 8)
Well guess what. I found another leak in this damned tank. Looks like the more I patch the more I find. I wonder if this thing is related to a rabbit. I applied two more patches this morning and am waiting to see what will happen. It seems that the epoxy stick will harden with fuel in the tank as long as there isn't a big vapour leak underneath it.
I also filed a couple of patches I made on the top of the tank and it is very easily workable. Shaping with a smooth file is fantastic compared to using the orbital sander.
I think I might be in competition with Tiffanator as to who has the worst tank to repair around here.
BTW does anyone know how much a POR kit will cost? Or maybe I should go and find a radiator repairhsop that is willing to seal it for me for a fiar but cheap price. Someone already in a previous post said that they had theirs sealed by a radiator shop, I wonder how that came out?
This tank seem to have more holes in it than grandma's pincushion. >:(
I had mine done by a radiator shop 5 yrs ago before I knew about this site and POR 15. Aside from the truly nasty appearance inside I have had no problems. But, mine did not leak before I had it coated. It was just rusty inside.
POR kit is approx. $35.00US.
The nice thing about por or caswells, is the the tank metal is insulated from contact with any future water incursion. if you choose to go to a radiator shop , be certain that that they are going to coat the inside , not just solder up the holes. Vision tanks are thin and if there not coated , the holes will just move to a new location. My last Por 15 kit cost $45.00
WOO HOO! I'm not the only one with a nightmare tank! vadasz1 I'm really sorry to hear you are having so many problems with your tank. Here's what I learned... JB weld is gas proof... JB weld is NOT acetone proof. Epoxy putty is gas proof and acetone proof... Epoxy putty is NOT phosphoric acid proof. If you have to get that Kreeme out... good luck.
I think I may finally have my tank sealed... I say that.. its been sitting in my shop now for several months with fuel in it, I need to go check and see if it has leaked out.
Keep at it... eventually you will track down all the little pin holes. One thing to remember is that if you do any kind of acid treatment to the inside, which you will do if you POR it, the acid will open up even more little pin holes that were almost rusted through but not completely. So watch for that.
Hi there Tiff! Welcome back! I've missed your posts. Glad to see you're still around.
David
Thankfully, I'm not experienced in tank repair at all. But I remember a tip that one poster passed on about using POR a long time ago, when the tank repair posts were flying hot-n-heavy, that sounded really intriguing.
The tip was, that after the tank had been thoroughly acid cleaned and ALL holes had been exposed, cotton (think cotton balls) was stuffed into each hole from the outside of the tank. The tank was then PORed as per the standard POR instructions. If a little POR leaks through the cotton, that not a bad thing. It means that the cotton is fully saturated with the POR material. After the curing period is complete(a week is good, 2 weeks are better) the excess cotton on the outside of the tank is gently sanded smooth and flush with the tank surface.
The thinking is that the cotton provides a matrix that soaks up the POR material, which coats the inside of the tank and also forms a POR ceramic plug as an integrated part of the coating.
The logic sounds very attractive.
that was me.... working on my brother's "most beautiful tank I've ever seen.....that leaked" :D
while going through the por steps.... I noticed my pants were getting wet... foot too!
couple of tiny pin holes had opened up after the chems and shake-n-bake with some nuts to loosen the rust....
took some cotton, very little, wadded up so as not to draw out too much por and ruin the paint... blue painter's tape over the swab.... continued the process and let cure...
trimmed it flush.... and if I didn't show you where, you'd never see the tiny specks of por on the exterior.....
prolly good for very small pin holes.... been good for going on two years now....
good memory QBS :)
I haven't tried POR before, but a long time ago I Kreem-ed a tank. About a month ago I tried the Caswell epoxy stuff and really liked the way it went on. It's thick, like syrup and coats pretty fast - about 5 or 10 minutes until it sets up. I have the sense that it would fill little pinholes on it's own.
My .02.
What did your Caswells cost/ I'm thinking of trying it next time.
$Probably around $45 with shipping and/or tax. With the amount you get, it'll treat two tanks, but I put it on thick and saw no need for a 2nd coat. I have about 1/3 of each of the 2 cans left and can't see myself using them on anything in the forseeable future. If you'd like to try it out, I could certainly send them to you. There's probably not enough to treat an entire tank, but if you had a small tank or wanted to try it on a coffee can, you could give it a shot.
Hey, as a side bonus. This stuff really doesn't smell too bad. I did it at the kitchen counter and I'm still married. :)
Quote from: Rick G on June 11, 2008, 12:32:55 AM
What did your Caswells cost/ I'm thinking of trying it next time.
This crappy designed tank is really pissing me off now........... >:( >:( >:(
BUT.......I think I finally got all the holes. I applied some more epoxy stick to the whole underside on the front from the petcock back about 8". Then when I let it dry and flipped the tank right side up I noticed that there was a stain on the epoxied area on the top at about 4 o'clock from the gas cap. This was a dent that was previously pulled out with rods I guess. Well one of the pimples left on the top was so thin, after I filed the epoxy down a bit, that it created a very small pinhole that let some fuel seep out. The stain was about 1 1/2" in diameter. So I took a wire brush and cleaned the stained area and then poked the pimple with a pointed knife to make it a little bigger. Then filled it again with the epoxy stick. (LOCKTITE stock must be doing fantastic by now ::) )
I'll check tomorrow again but it seems like I finally got the bottom of the tank leak free. So next week should be able to prime it and some of the other plastic pieces.
I'm also trying to decide whether to paint the fairing frame and also the footpeg brackets and any other black parts a gloss black or a semi flat black finish.
Here is a link to some photos: http://photobucket.com/RPendli_82_Vision_project_repairs (http://photobucket.com/RPendli_82_Vision_project_repairs)
Robert , its not such a crappy design , if you want it to last 10 years . Yamaha had no idea anyone would want to ride one 26 years later. .
Rick, you are right. I too wish the wood working machines we design & build would last only 10 years and then blow up. Alas we build them to last practically forever and that will probably kill us as a company.
BTW, there was a thread a few months back about someone making a fiberglassed larger tank for the vision. If memory serves me right I think it was Ian from New Zealand. I wonder how he's coming along with it?
I'd settle for the same size or maybe taller , wider would probably conflict with the fairing.
Well I must have side stepped the shit pile because I am not having any luck with this tank.
Today as I was putting the finishing touches on the bondo work that I have been religiously applying and sanding for the last week, I noticed a small stain around the area where I have that BIG gash. After picking at it a bit and removing a bit of the bondo I noticed that the metal epoxy has a stain as well. Removed the epoxy and saw that it was VERY stained near the tank. "#$&*&^$%" is what I said outloud. Well I removed the remainder of the bondo and epoxy around the area and cleaned the gash with a wire brush again. Looks like I will have to do a sheetmetal patch on the area and TIG weld it in place. This I will have done by a sheet metal welder buddy of mine. I just have to save up some cash and buy some POR, because I see that the KREEM that is inside is peeling off and the inside of the tank is pretty crappy.
I think I asked this before, but will as it again. What happened to that member that was making a fiberglass modified tank for the Vision? I sure would like to know how he's coming along with it.
The tank is at my buddy's place ready to be fixed. He said that the best way would be to cut out the INFECTED area and TIG weld with a new patch shaped the same as the area to be fixed. We'll see later as to how good it will be.
Today I recieved my PRINCESS AUTO summer catologue and within the pages of REPAIR KITS, I saw an item made by Permatex that is a METAL FUEL TANK repair kit. It says it can repair cracks upto 4" long and holes 3/8" diameter. IT contains everything you need such as epoxy putty, pouch, alchol towelette, bandage (for the tank not your finger), sandpaper and applicator brush. All this for the low cost of $12.99 CDN. Product #8161184 on the website. Could be a easy way to repair those pesky tanks of ours.
OH chimera, do you mind chiming in once and awhile to say hi and to let us know how the mold is coming along. Last entry in your thread looke very close to completion.
Hmm... really sorry to hear about all the problems you are having with your tank. I was in my shop the other day and ran my hands over the patched spots in my tank that have been sitting with fuel in them for several months and none of the primer rubbed off... I take this as a good sign since I know gas will remove the primer (as how I found that out!)
I had planned many moons ago to begin work on a carbon fiber/kevlar composite tank since I just don't feel that fiberglass is strong enough on its own to safely withstand a crash. However, since then I have destroyed a well-built PWC hull... and had to demolish it with the help of a bobcat, chainsaw and sawzall. The fiberglass on the hull ranged from 3/8" to 3/4" thick and I couldn't even make a dent with a sledgehammer and was only able to leave a gash through the fiberglass with an axe.. and I'm no sissy at swinging those things. Obviously the impact of a crash would exert greater forces and possibly a grinding along the street, however I feel that if you hit hard enough to substantially fracture the fiberglass you may have bigger problems.
I do still have the cloth and resin to make the mold... hmm... maybe I'll add that to the to-do list for the weekend... behind the 3 bicycles I'm fixing and mowing my friend's yard... haha. ;D
As for changing the shape of the tank, that can easily be done if anyone wants to. However coming from a Z1000 with its 3.7 gallon tank I find the 5 gallons on the XZ plenty. Obviously I would build my own personal tank first and use it for quite a while to ensure its quality before I let anyone else use it. I would produce some test panels of fiberglass to beat on and run over with the car, but I feel that I have sufficiently tested the strength of fiberglass by pounding it with the business end of a bobcat mini-excavator over and over without much luck.
Now that I have hijacked your thread... I'll say that I hate Vision tanks with a passion that now you can understand. HAHA! I empathize with what you are going through man, keep at it cause it feels SO good when you finally get the tank to hold fuel.
Quote from: Rick G on June 11, 2008, 12:32:55 AM
What did your Caswells cost/ I'm thinking of trying it next time.
Aye, I'm thinking of going that route as well. I remember someone saying they used a whole kit (supposedly one order is good for two tanks normally) and let the excess cure in the low spots since that gas is typically unused anyway. :p Only thing I have to read on more is how they kept the petcock area clear if it's a problem. I figure the Caswell might be a bit more forgiving if I miss some pinholes with the JB Weld.
I remember the thread you're talking about, hopefully progess can be posted on if they haven't been detoured. :) That and/or Tiff will get one goin'. ;) I don't thinkI'd want a different shape as I rather like the current shape and rust wouldn't be a problem with fiberglass.
I used the permatex to fix the pinholes in my last tank and it worked well. Got it at Advance Autoparts. The JB Weld just didn't seem to hold up good enough.
David
I had used the Casewells to fill the low spots. I used an aluminum plate with some gasket material to seal off the petcock area. I sprayed the petcock screws with silicone before using them to hold the plate in place to create a cast threaded pocket in the Casewells. As for the petcock feed area, I waited for the material to fully cure, removed the plate and gasket, then using a dremel and 1/8 bit drilled through the casewells I used the side of the bit to route the area clear. Make sure the plate and gasket are no thicker then the petcock to prevent the screws from pushing up on the hardened Casewells when you install the petcock. BTW no leaks as yet.
Hmmmm - I believe there's now a gremlin coming out of hibernation. ;)
My next tank project will use the Caswell's. Afraid if I say anything about my first tank, I'll awaken that gremlin. My stator gremlin is plenty for now. ;D I'll just say that I have no complaints about the first tank lining I did close to 10 years ago.
H2O