My Vision

[Mike Jacobs]

  Ok, well today is the day.  My rotor is here, and the front caliper seals are in at the dealer.  Hoping my girl will pick them up for me.  Before I do all that, I am gonna test the charging system, and maybe take a ride, it may be a few days before I get her back together. 

I already cut out the side stand switch and the rev limiter, at the TCI.  So that wasn't the problem.  I will also test the starter, this bike looks really clean, and not much work done to her, I would be very surprised if the starter seal had been replaced.  Who would replace the starter seal, and not change the stator connection.  Anyhow, breakfast is done, so I am gonna get started.  I'll continue using this post to sort out my thoughts and vent my frustrations.  -JM

Hi John, sorry for the late greeting but I just started reading your thread - I've only been on the forum a couple of weeks myself.   I'm in Columbia MD about an hour's twisty riding upstream the Patuxent River from you... there are some nice backroads near where you live.

I read your previous posts about the frustration getting your new Vision to run consistently.  I've been having issues with my TCI burning out (twice) and I suspect both times it was due to a dying battery (at least I hope it's not something more involved since this beta testing of new TCIs is getting expensive)

Sounds like your problem is somewhere in your starter system, not in the ignition itself though.   have you tried bump-starting her?   Not a "jump" from a car battery -- I mean, sit astride the seat with your feet on the ground, bike in first or second gear, clutch pulled in, key on, then push it along by foot (heading downhill is nice, but not too steep, you might have to push it back up) then pop the clutch out when you get going 5 mph or so.   I've had to do that a couple of times due to a weak battery (although, knock wood, no problems whatsoever yet with the starter itself on mine).

Good luck getting her running, and post some pictures, okay?   And maybe we can get together a Maryland ride, along with Joe from WV who works in Frederick MD....  I've never seen another Vision in the flesh besides my own...  I think the bikes would like it.   8*)

[JohnAMcG]

Hey mike,
  A ride would be great.  I'm just about ready for that.  As for your tci, I would go over every electrical connection on the bike.  Every time I thought I had them all, I found some other connection that needed work.  Writing from my cell, but I fixed my starting issue, and if you need some help testing your rr or stator, or anything else, or doing the starter clutch fix, id be happy to help.

[JohnAMcG]

Well, another setback.

    I have been driving around with my valve covers weeping, because I want to make sure the petcock is the cause before I put on the new ones.  No big deal, I took a nice ride with a buddy, then came home.  Well, cookout at the GFs house on Monday night, so I check the oil, top it off, and head up the road.  Well, I get there and check the oil, and it is very low.  The oil light never came on, but I couldn't see any in the window.  Crap.  So I go out and get some oil, 15W40 is all I can find at 9pm on Labor day, top it off, and decide to ride home in the morning in the light.  Well coming home, I go to stop at a red light and bang.  Not the valve covers this time.  It's the drum brace bar bolts.  Wrapped the rod around the axle one time before it broke off the, well, I dont know what to call it.  The actuator level on the drum itself, the rod that goes into the drum and puts force on the pad mechanism.  Yeah, that twisted off.  So I need a new one of those.  I have another connecting rod, I don't really know why or how, but I do. 

Anybody have a new one of those things they could send me?  Or even a name for it would help. 

On the plus side, I was able to keep the bike rubber side down, my charging system is putting 13+ volts to the battery and idle, and the starter cranks right up.  Still need the petcock kit to come in the mail, install the new valve cover gaskets, oil and properly route the throttle and choke cables, repair my YICS, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some things.  First thing I need to do to ride, is fix the rear brake. 

[Rikugun]

Wow, sorry to hear that. That was unfortunate and avoidable.   :( The worst part is, Lucky will have to take you behind the wood shed and introduce your backside to his belt.   :o

[Lucky]

Dude, your lucky to be alive & not seiously injured...

there is a reason that is the only sticky on this forum.

I might just unlock it & copy/paste your story into it...

[Mike Jacobs]

Well, another setback.

Dang!!   You're seriously lucky to be alive John.  I take it you didn't see Lucky's sticky-post on the tech forum about that very problem with the corroded rear brake tension arm bolts?   That should be treated by us like a safety recall notice, or at least a mandatory service bulletin, IMO.

I did, and ordered the parts forthwith, but my local shop in Ellicott City has them on backorder special order for me.   But I must confess I did take the Vision out for a couple of rides while waiting for the brake parts to come in.   Maybe I shouldn'a.... that's when my battery died and fried my TCI...

First thing I need to do to ride, is fix the rear brake.

Yeppers.   I'm parking the Vision and not going anywhere with it 'til my parts come in and I have them mounted.

Question to Lucky and the other experts though, are these two bolts so unique in design that no hardware-store replacement, even a proper, metric-sized, case-hardened one or stainless-steel one, would do the job instead?  Why is the entire not-yet-complied Vision population being held hostage by lack of availability of these bolts at Yamaha dealers?

[Night Vision]

it's been awhile since.... but I know the rear bolt is shouldered and it's head fits into the brake hub casting and is drilled for a cotter pin... and about $6

I'm quite sure Tiger has used something else on his cubs and will share the info if you pm him

[JohnAMcG]

I'm on my phone now, longer post to follow.  But in short, I can get the bolts we need.  Not from yamaha, from uncle Sam.  But rest assured, I pulled the bolts and checked them, no corrosion, looked new.  Made sure not to over tighten, and usually look at them when checking rear tire pressure before a ride.

[Lucky]

Grade 8 case hardened bolts will work just fine. the reason to use the Yamaha bolts is that they fit better, & are designed to work with the system.

                                     HOWEVER

Keep in mind that to function properly this bar must first, be in good shape, if it's rusted out at all or shows any sign of stress, then it should be replaced.  This isn't mentioned in the sticky, & there have been no reports of this type of problem, but a 10 minuet inspection costs nothing. The bikes are nearly 30 years old.

Second, all the force of the rear brake is being applied to theses bolts & the bar.  considering the rear brake sees much less use than the front brake, as common as this failure is, this indicates a weak link in the chain. replace them.

as far as aftermarket fasteners go, the importaint things are that they clamp the parts together TIGHT & don't ever come loose.

all cross drilling does is insure the nut doesn't come off. that hasn't been the issue, they fracture & break. a locknut & red locktite should be sufficent, as long as the bolts are grade 8, the metric eqivilent or better.

after changing them, preride inspect them for looseness, & probably change them out every 4-5 years or so.

[Tiger]

it's been awhile since.... but I know the rear bolt is shouldered and it's head fits into the brake hub casting and is drilled for a cotter pin... and about $6

I'm quite sure Tiger has used something else on his cubs and will share the info if you pm him

:) I use grade 8, 3/8" hex head bolts with Blue thread locker and a nyloc nut. I drill the nyloc nut and install a cotter pin. The 3/8" hex head fits in to the rear brake plate. The trick is not to over tighten as the system has to move up and down...hence the oem shoulder style bolt...Torque setting = 14 ft lbs.

However, this works for me and my rebuilds...and everyone has passed the road safety cert'... 8)

                        8) .......TIGER....... 8)

[JohnAMcG]

I have access to a high quality government machine shop, indirectly, well stocked with bored machinists, not to mention every type of fastener you can think.

Was thinking...  maybe put the highest grade possible in the front, and one down from that in the rear so that if one is gonna go, the rear one will go first.  It seems the rear one is much more manageable when it breaks. Thoughts?

[Lucky]

The trick is not to over tighten as the system has to move up and down...hence the oem shoulder style bolt.

Um, no it doesn't...
After reading what you just wrote, I went out & checked Spectre's Vision, which is stripped down to the frame for painting, & eventually an engine.  the shock is out & the swing arm is currently being held up with chain. the front of the brake bar is still attached to the swingarm & moves up & down with it.

the front end of the bar mount to the swing arm. the forward end is not on the frame. Tiger, you should have them tight.

[Lucky]

John,

if the front one breaks the drum will rotate forward & the front of the bar will hit the pavement possably pogo sticking the bike.

If the back bolt breaks, the drum will rotate, activating the brake & locking your rear tire, putting you into an uncontrolled skid.

is one situation better than the other. possably. are both very preventable with $5 woth of hardware? most likely..  use the best stuff you can find, don't play the odds, eliminate them.

[JohnAMcG]

Yeah.  You,re right lucky.  Well, my pops will say its not necessarily an uncontrollable skid.  He skidded his rear all the time on purpose, but he was a reckless rider, and is now paying the price.  I did not skid for more than a small fraction of a second, as my brake cam snapped off.  It wrapped the rod around about three quarters of a turn.   I was probably going thirty mph at the time.  I was able to come to a safe stop.  Not meant to be argumentative at all, just sharing some more details.  I think you are absolutely right, as usual.  -JM

[Tiger]

....... Tiger, you should have them tight.

:) Tight yes but not reefed up...Tightening Torque setting = 14 ft lbs for both: Tension bar @ rear arm and Tension bar @ brake shoe plate. (The same setting as the front axle shaft pinch bolt).

                          8) .......TIGER....... 8)

[Rikugun]

The bolt is shouldered to center it in the brake arm and keep the arm fully supported rather than resting on the points of threads. If it were meant to spin, the shoulder would project past the face of the installed brake arm providing clearance. Steel on steel movement isn't the Japanese style anyway!   :)

Whether the bolt fails in tension or shear, the valleys of the threads are now potential stress risers using Tiger's method. I'm sure the grade 8 bolt is up to the task but something to consider.

One more thought regarding Lucky's statement:

considering the rear brake sees much less use than the front brake,

I agree with the statement but not the assumption that everyone is using the front brake as they should. I hope no Vision riders are using the rear as their primary braking source? Probably not, but worth mentioning at the risk of offending the Vision population!  :-[

I've seen plenty of bikes with the rear brake adjustment all used up and the original front pads lookin' like new!  Yikes!

[Tiger]

 :) The oem tension bar fastener's are not supposed to spin, nor did I mean to imply this... 

A good quality SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) grade 8 bolt is made from Medium Carbon Alloy steel, Quenched and tempered with a tensile strength of 150,000 min' psi and a Rockwell hardness of C33 to C39...However, new oem replacement tension bar fasteners work just fine and should be used whenever a replacement is needed.
           
Fasteners are not made to last forever  :o ::) Everytime you tighten a bolt it stretches to some degree and should be replaced, with new, at some point... or they WILL fail, sometimes with dire consequences!!!

At the time of replacing the tension bar fasteners on "The Mistress" , I was told "one, two or maybe three weeks for delivery" by the Yamaha dealers around my area. Looking for a safe alternative around this problem, being a hardware salesman for many years to mainly MRO's in the transport and industrial sectors, I consulted with my father (an engineer who had ran his own machine and fabrication shops for many years) and we came up with the SAE grade 8 bolt solution FOR MY VISION...I do not expect anyone to follow my way of repairing this potential lethal problem.


8).......TIGER....... 8) 

[Rikugun]

I did not think you meant the bolt spins. I thought your understanding was that the bar and backing plate realized some pivoting or movement relative to each other as a result of wheel travel.

If it were meant to spin

"it" in this case is the arm. Perhaps pivot would have been a better choice of words. Sorry for the confusion.

I agree those bolts should be replaced as a matter of course every so often for safety sake.  I also agree the grade 8 bolts are up to the task. I'll have to take your word for the mechanical properties, chemical composition, and heat treatment listed as I don't feel like looking it up and I have the feeling you allready did! ;) For me personally, I prefer the proper shouldered bolt when available. After all, I'm sure the engineers who designed it did their homework too.   :)

In case I've confused others, the brake arm, swingarm, and brake backing plate maintain the same relationship and move as one with wheel travel.

[Lucky]

I think we all pretty much agree, replace 'em. if your not using a shouldered bolt, then just be aware that perhaps they should be replaced more often. if nothing else, inspected reguarly.  

Tiger, I did think you meant leave them a little loose, glad you didn't. :)

I don't think anyone has mentioned that none that had been replaced, broke.

[JohnAMcG]

Question.  Are the two bolts the same?  I have the front, cam I match thatfor both, or are they different?