Author Topic: What did you do to your vision today?  (Read 58245 times)

Rikugun

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2013, 08:15:11 PM »
And since we know fuses are not burning, you can expect to see amp readings within the acceptable range for that circuit.  ;)
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Re-Vision

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2013, 09:38:55 PM »
I knew that.     BDC

pinholenz

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2013, 03:15:25 AM »
Thanks gents. Glad I asked, in my ignorance I would have done more damage. I appreciate the advice.

1. Old fuse box is a potential area of unwanted current draw - get it replaced
2. Test actual current at fuses across the connectors with fuses removed and bike running. But only if the multimeter can carry the current ( My model is rated at 10 amp for 10 seconds max using  unfused connections)

Can that be done?  Won't removing fuses stop the bike running? What am I missing here?

Cheers
Only one '82.5  eXtreme Zen 550

vintage bikeworks

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2013, 08:28:28 AM »
Thanks gents. Glad I asked, in my ignorance I would have done more damage. I appreciate the advice.

1. Old fuse box is a potential area of unwanted current draw - get it replaced
2. Test actual current at fuses across the connectors with fuses removed and bike running. But only if the multimeter can carry the current ( My model is rated at 10 amp for 10 seconds max using  unfused connections)

Can that be done?  Won't removing fuses stop the bike running? What am I missing here?

Cheers

The only way to measure current with your mulitmeter is to have it "in series" or "in line" (as opposed to "in parallel" or "across" when measuring voltage) with the circuit being tested.   With fuse removed (for the circuit being tested) you'll need to have each lead of the meter attached to each side of the fuse holder with alligator clips before starting the bike.  In this way, you have replaced the fuse with the meter and are now in series with the circuit.  As mentioned, most meters have a fused internal circuit (10 amps is typical) designed to protect the meter internals.  You may however be able to read current higher than 10 amps for very brief periods (a few seconds) since the multimeter fuse is of a slow blow design.  Take care in ensuring meter leads do not touch each other and are clear of touching ground...!   :o  Also be sure each lead connection with alligator clips and fuse holder is tight and has as much contact as possible.  If only little or loose contact is made, this may generate heat from the current flow...!    :o
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 05:37:58 PM by vintage bikeworks »
1982 Yamaha XZ550 Vision
2002 Yamaha FZ1
1978 Honda CB400TII Hawk
2018 Yamaha FJR1300

Rikugun

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2013, 09:06:16 AM »
Remove the fuse and connect one meter lead to one end of the fuse clip and the other meter lead to the other fuse clip. Now the meter is in series - it is the fuse. Turn the key on and note the amp draw. I'm not sure you need to run the engine.

So now you have a value which is presumably less than the amp rating of the fuse i.e. it is within the acceptable range. We know this because you are not burning fuses and we are assuming you are using the correct fuses. So what do you do with this info? What do you compare it to? What do you fix, replace or repair? As far as you can tell it's within spec, right?

This seems to come from a comment that the R/R doesn't like high current draw. I won't touch this one as I've seen the exact opposite argued. "...alternator puts out max all the time, the more you use the less has to be shunted, the R/R runs cooler, etc., etc..." Some have added higher amp headlights and other accessories claiming it's helped there situation. I don't know if it's true or not and there are no controlled tests to derive accurate results from which to draw a conclusion. The anecdotal evidence is all over the place.

I'm suggesting replacing the fuse box simply because it's the right thing to do, not because I believe it's the ruination of your R/R's.  :D  Worse case scenario eventually the resistance gets sufficiently high at corroded crimped OEM fuse fittings, the wires melt and worse. After replacement, the headlight will be brighter and the ignition will have more available volts which is especially helpful during cranking. You'll be starting with a more sound electrical system and eliminating the potential for problems. This was enough reason for me to replace mine and I did realize higher system voltage changing nothing else.

The original R/R on your Vision failed because they suck. Maybe the used replacements installed later were questionable as well. Who knows for sure. The only thing an ohm test will indicate is if it's absolutely dead. If it shows good, it unfortunately won't tell you how close to death it is. My suggestion is try a MOSFET this time. Start with a good battery and stator. Consider replacing the battery cables. Make the AC to R/R connections mechanically and electrically sound. Connect the plus and minus R/R wires directly to the battery. Replace the fuse box. Then cross your fingers and hope for the best.  ;D
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

Ken Williams

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2013, 01:49:00 PM »
I doubt there is a circuit on this Vision that is drawing excessive current.  The fact that the battery maintained proper charge for an extended period of time before regulator failure indicates the charging system was able to handle the load.  The charging current out of the stator is approximately constant.  Charging current necessary to maintain proper battery voltage flows to the battery.  Any excess current bypasses the battery.  There are some different R/R semiconductors in use depending on if charging current is being supplied to the battery or not.  Hopefully the R/R is designed for reliability under minimal to heavy charging.

 l would recommend circuit resistance checks if fuses were blowing or to see if the battery was being discharged while the bike was parked.  I donít recommend inserting your meter in the circuit to measure amperage.  To properly measure in circuit current flows you need a current probe, something few of us have available.  If your meter can measure low resistance values you can measure fuse resistance, then measure the voltage across the fuse and use i=v/r to calculate current.  If the circuit has non-constant current flow, the meter reading will be dependent on how the meter combines the ac and dc components of the voltage. 

My recommended path forward is similar to what the others on this thread recommend: 
1.   Perform the stator resistance checks to assure it is ok.
2.   If it has any burnt sections replace it even if it tests ok. 
3.   Perform R/R tests on the new candidate R/R, MOSFET unit is improvement over previous design.
4.   Check and clean as necessary all electrical connections to verify integrity and assure low resistance.  This especially applies to the fuse box if you donít replace it. 
5.   Install resistance checked R/R. 
6.   Charge battery.
7.   Start engine and check for proper voltage, approximately 14 volts. 

Rick G

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2013, 07:28:51 PM »
I have seen 12.5 volts when one phase in the Stator is burnt  . My VX read fine until I rode 5 miles , then it started to show low charge rate . I checked it with a meter when I got home . It took about 15 to thirty min, to show  failure . The stator had 3 dark brown colis as opposed to the XZ's crispy black , cindery ones. I installed a used one from an XZ   (tan in colour ) Its been working for two years now . Many bikes have problems with the G7 stators , but the XZ really punishes them.
Rick G
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'90 Suzuki VX800, 1990 Suzuki DR350.
'74  XL350   Honda , 77 XL350 Honda, 78 XL350 Honda, '82 XT 200 Yamaha, '67 Yamaha YG1TK, 80cc trail bike

treedragon

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2013, 12:38:31 AM »
The day before yesterday I made new mounting points on the shortened subframe for the seat and tail unit.

Yesterday I fibreglassed up a new removable section for under the seat to hold all my wiring neat and tidy. I did this by creating a mockup in place with thin stiff cardboard, then glassing over it........ well actually is was a beer box I used, "Tui" for those who know it, not the prettiest job but strong and well hidden under the seat.

Today I actually made my wiring all neat and tidy, replacing some of it and trimming the rest to suit. The voltage regulator now sits on the outside of the fibreglass piece in clean moving air under the tail section and the effective battery terminals are now basically under the seat with permanent leads down to the battery itself just below the swingarm pivot.
I also did a quick eyeball of the Ducati SS900 tailpiece I am using, threw a bit of masking tape at it and then hit it with the partoff saw, (someone really should put that out of reach  ;D

Fortunately it then became obvious how I was going to do the tail light/indicator/numberplate arrangement down aft which up til that point had been somewhat of a mystery..........  ::) 
A little different, clean and simple with no "sticky out" bits and using the rear tail light of my FZR1000 which got "replaced" 17 years ago, (it's amazing how these things hang around), and to top it off I am going to use a couple of Aprilia indicators in a non standard manner  ;D  ;D

As a bonus there is probably another couple of kg's removed from the rear.

 
There is always a way

fret not

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2013, 01:14:03 AM »
For everyone's safety and to help protect all pocket books here is some pertinent information regarding the MOSFET RR units.  They do NOT test the same way the original silicon chip RR units do.  I don't know how to test them if not connected to a working bike, but they do respond to testing under normal operation for voltage delivered to the battery.  A steady reading at the battery of about 14.2V from just above idle and all up through the rev range is what I look for.
Retired, on the downhill slide. . . . . . . . still feels like going uphill!

pinholenz

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2013, 12:22:14 PM »
Today I received my MOSFET R/R taken from a 2009 Honda CBR600RR. It looks like a brand new FH008 series R/R.  Thanks for the heads up Fret Nut - I had been looking for a testing regime similar to the excellent tutorial available for shunt rectifiers. Looks like I just have to hook it up and see what the output is. Suck it and see!

I will be hooking it directly to the battery as per this schematic (same as my old R/R)
http://roadstercycle.com/Easy%20Mosfet%20Install.htm

The advantage of the CBR MOSFET is that it comes with long tails  and good quality connectors (if you can get them). Either way you are not having to try to extend the stator wires or source plugs to hook directly in to the R/R body as with later style MOSFETS.

I have mounted the new R/R/ back in  to the old position behind the battery box. Although the bolt hols are the same position, the body is bigger, so I have  mounted it on an angle to get it to fit. Should finish the job in a couple of days, snatching 15 minutes when I can.
Only one '82.5  eXtreme Zen 550

Rikugun

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2013, 03:19:10 PM »
treedragon - thanks for the post and bringing us back in line with the spirit of the thread. We got a little carried away with techy stuff there for a bit! It's always nice to hear from you and I enjoy keeping up with your latest mods. If you can I'd love to see some pics.

pinholenz - hopefully the new R/R will do the trick. As fret pointed out and you've discovered there doesn't seem to be any published procedure for statically checking the MOSFET R/Rs - at least when I last checked which was admittedly a while ago now that I think of it....  :-[   Give us an update when it's completed and let us know what the running voltage across the battery is.  :)
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

treedragon

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2013, 02:38:13 AM »
so then................ today saw some more "play it by ear" creating with the prime motivation being to find a strong lightweight mount for the rear light and indicators that also gave more rigidity to the tailpiece for small luggage carrying. Seemed straight forward as there were mainly right angles involved with the base structure. Then, low and behold.... there it was, one of those right angle shelf supports with the round ends made out of pressed steel with the rib down the center.

I made up a sacrificial piece then tested to destruction before the main one got thoroughly glassed into the underside of the tailpiece. It is very strong, provides the appropriate support, some minor details to sort out still, and definitely lightweight.

Out of some aluminium angle laying around the place I crafted a simple framework to hold the indicators and tail light as one unit and have mounted in position under the tailpiece on the new main support. The look.......... well sort of orange eyed Darth Vader really  ;D  at least from behind, mind you that could change as I still have to create/glass in, some underside panels for the tail piece...... hmmm I have just thought I might be able to enhance the effect, keep any tailgaters at bay and the like. The tail piece and the attendant indicators are totally under the fairing, streamlined even, so that might be worth another inch per hour in speed........
Side view is great, my frenzied part off saw work yesterday doesn't seem to have gone astray.

The underside I will do at a later point, (there is a ride on this weekend, I need to be road legal for it), so I don't really have time........... possibly.......... hmmmm maybe  ;D

The method I will use is to create a mold of the new bits out of cardboard attached to the existing tail, shaped in situ so to speak.  Possibly Tui cartons again as it takes quite well to being shaped in multiple curves (as long as I don't drink the contents first  ::) ), and then glass directly onto the tail piece, simply peeling off the cardboard formers afterwards and finishing.

An interesting observation is that with the fully exposed wheel and lifted tail section the rear wheel does not look so skinny (by today's standards)

Of course this little lot has suggested to me that I need to craft a new seat for the final marrying in of the tail piece and the tank but I think that will be a story for another time I have a plan....  ;D  ;D

   
There is always a way

pinholenz

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2013, 06:01:19 AM »
Tonight, got the MOSFET wired up and couldn't help but start the bike at 10.30 pm. Sorry neighbours - just HAD to do it. Steady 14.2 volts at the battery terminals at idle and  13.9 volts with the lights on. Will sleep easy tonight and go for a run tomorrow.

Also fitted a replacement  indicator cancellation unit. I didn't even realise that the indicators should self-cancel. Looking forward to finding out if it works or whether I have problem elsewhere.
Only one '82.5  eXtreme Zen 550

kwells

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2013, 02:53:07 AM »
Tonight pulled Blackie up onto the lift for a spring carb clean and new set of D7EA plugs. She is blowing a bit of oil and is about to get slated for some new high lift cams. Soon I'll have a custom set of rings made up for a new top end. Seems to pull as hard as ever now.

Just have to sort out a potential vacuum leak and I think she's good to go.
...a vision is never complete.

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Prophet Of Doom

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2013, 06:05:47 AM »
Where does one get a set of high lift cams? 

Rikugun

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2013, 11:28:39 AM »
kwells, do you pull the carbs off every spring for a cleaning or are there special circumstances?

Roro, not sure where kwells is sourcing them but there are companies that will happily take your money and grind you a custom set of cams.  :D I think it's Megacycle cams in California that can build up your stock cam then custom grind it to agreed upon specs.
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

vintage bikeworks

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2013, 12:17:47 PM »
kwells, do you pull the carbs off every spring for a cleaning or are there special circumstances?

Roro, not sure where kwells is sourcing them but there are companies that will happily take your money and grind you a custom set of cams.  :D I think it's Megacycle cams in California that can build up your stock cam then custom grind it to agreed upon specs.

Just curious...How would one go about deciding on cam lift and duration?  What specs would you give the cam grinder or would they have some input?  Interesting subject...  ???
1982 Yamaha XZ550 Vision
2002 Yamaha FZ1
1978 Honda CB400TII Hawk
2018 Yamaha FJR1300

Rikugun

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2013, 03:28:34 PM »
By immersing yourself in the world of high performance engine work. Read, study, follow others with similar interests. Because the Vision is what it is, this forum has minimum focus on high performance work. There are other forums however that are rich in high performance discussion and engine building. The interwebs is a great place to look and is full of info free for the researching.  :) Also, the aftermarket camshaft industry will often be the best source of info. As you might expect, they are quite knowledgeable with what they do.

Personally I know very little about that world and have always been an advocate of keeping things a bit closer to stock for reliability in street use. Even when I raced it was in a box stock class which evens the field and is more about riding skill then budget or performance mod prowess. While I can appreciate the skill and dedication to those that really do it well it's never been my thing.  :D
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

kwells

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #58 on: March 16, 2013, 03:50:03 PM »
I got the cams from a member here about 5 years ago and they have sat until now. I still need to do some research to see how they will fit. They came with a performance kit I got that ended up being for an xz400. I will be selling the high comp 400 pistons(oversized) matched cylinders, and rods that I won't use though.

I pulled the carbs just as a precaution since it was running poorly. I had a liner get dissolved by some race fuel I ran last year so I wanted to verify they were still good(they are). It only took about an hour to get them cleaned and back in so not much invested. I added D7ea plugs at the same time...turned out to be the plugs fouled out. Next up I'll be replacing my cracked intake boots.
...a vision is never complete.

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Rikugun

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Re: What did you do to your vision today?
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2013, 04:12:48 PM »
So you are trying a slightly hotter plug as a stop gap measure to combat the beat rings and oil fouling?
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is then to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.  Carl Sagan

 

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