Motorcycle safety ad

[ps2/bikevision]

yea deer are a major hazard around me. ive been lucky and never hit one with my truck (probaly cause i have a habbit of swerving to hit them. i have a good bumper and they wouldnt hurt it abit).

Motorplow and Mutt. You remember this story?

when i first got my vision i decided to ride it one nite through my buddys front yard. (5 acres) as i was slowing down to turn onto the road i looked up and there was a deer right in front of me. wet grass and a street bike dont mix. the deer stopped me like hitting a wall. down i went. and the stupid deer ran off. i wish now i had a spike on the front of the vision, then i would have had steaks for dinner. there was no damage to the bike. i was probally going 5mph when we hit but it was enough to knock me off balance.

lesson learned dont ride a bike on grass at night after a couple beers.

[QBS]

Don't ride a bike after a couple of beers,....Period.

[Mutt]

yea deer are a major hazard around me. ive been lucky and never hit one with my truck (probaly cause i have a habbit of swerving to hit them. i have a good bumper and they wouldnt hurt it abit).

Motorplow and Mutt. You remember this story?

when i first got my vision i decided to ride it one nite through my buddys front yard. (5 acres) as i was slowing down to turn onto the road i looked up and there was a deer right in front of me. wet grass and a street bike dont mix. the deer stopped me like hitting a wall. down i went. and the stupid deer ran off. i wish now i had a spike on the front of the vision, then i would have had steaks for dinner. there was no damage to the bike. i was probally going 5mph when we hit but it was enough to knock me off balance.

lesson learned dont ride a bike on grass at night after a couple beers.

Yep, I remember the story. I read recently where the new animal threat to vehicles in south western NC is the wild pig. That ought to make the dragon run a little more challenging huh? Imagine that pigs in the NC mountains. Seems like there was a movie with a line about "squeel like a pig".? :-\? Can't remember where it took place!? ::). Oh yeah....NC mountains!? :P Something about a pretty mouth too.? :-*? ? ? :D

Mutt

[Kevin]

that was me september 13/05.Except I flew over the roof and landed on my back in the street. I was released to return to work last week. My right wrist only has about 70% movement. and I have a plate and seven screws in the radius bone. The doc does not  know how I survived the impact. Kevin C.

[Coil Coyle]

I didnt feel like hitting the deer that appeared out of nowhere, you have no clue which way it is going to go,,,could be right could be left,,your headlights are magnets to them and alot of the time they will go the same way as the headlights

Squid,
? ? ? ? ? One night, when I used to drive an automobile to work, I saw a young buck racing across the field at the bottom of the street. He was leaving the creek and heading across the road I was traveling, into the safety of the forest, about twenty feet in front of me.
? ? ? ? ? I came to a full stop as he entered the roadway. He banked into a turn at the Van and rammed his antlers into the hood, right between the headlights.
? ? ? ? ? After he knocked himself out denting my hood, I respectfully sat there stopped for about a minute while he got his s__t together and stood up.
? ? ? ? ? I have believed since that moment that deer collisions could be avoided if you had a "Horn" button on the other handlebar that killed the headlight. I practice the mental maneuver of hitting the headlights off often as I ride to work at night by randomly declaring a deer crossing and closing my eyes, but I have not installed the switch yet, nor do I recommend that any reader of this post install one. I think the deer would cross without being hit but "Starlight", under a redwood forest, is similar to having your eyes closed.
:D
coil

[Paul_Jungnitsch]

Paul J. you wrote that you left a long streak of black rubber on the highway.? This may indicate that you were relying on the rear brake for your primary stopping power.? If so, please consider using the front brake as primary.? It will dramtically shorten your stopping distances.? Cheers.

That was a front lock (it was a nice straight road, thankfully). It was a Dunlop that was sort of a harder type of tire for touring. I avoided that model ever since.

I'll have to remember the swerve thing, but for me the real danger isn't the person who sees me and decides to cut out anyway, those are usually catch-able with attentiveness and defensive driving. The real danger in my opinion is those people that 'look but don't look'. They turn their heads out of habit, but the brain isn't registering very well. I know I've done it myself on occasion, and I know plenty of people who have done it, some who have died, including one friend's boy who turned out in his pickup in front of a gravel truck just a few months ago. The gravel truck driver left some pretty good skid marks on the highway, and actually injured his leg from standing on the pedal so hard. 99 times out of a hundred there is no problem. But in that 1 out of a 100 there can be simply no reaction time to dodge or space to brake, even when going fairly slow.

That is what that lady in Quebec did, she looked right at me but simply didn't see.

Thinking back, I still find it hard to believe her panicking and actually stopping, right across the highway.

Maybe that swerve will help, the yellow I'm sure will make a difference. The body armour is always there, just in case...

[Paul_Jungnitsch]

On that deer thing, on one motorcycle safety course the instructor told us if a deer runs across the highway in the distance don't breathe a sigh of relief, slow right down as it is likely another will follow right as you get close to the same spot.

Not a week later a deer did run across well ahead of me, I slowed right down and sure as hell one exploded out of the ditch just when I got to the same spot. Some animals must be too scared to cross untill they lose their nerve and go for it just when the noise gets loudest.

[Brian Moffet]

A hit like that & i doubt any amount of body armor will let you walk away...
You know what the bottom line is? that crash is the RIDERS fault.
It is his resonisibility to S.I.P.D.E.

I would have to disagree Lucky.  On both of these points.  I've walked away from a hit like that.  I t-boned a pickup truck just in front of the drivers side door.  I was doing about 25 on city streets.  The pickup driver (a teen abut 19) thought he could make it in front of me.  I hit him with little chance of braking.  I flew over the handle bars and landed on his hood.  From what I was told, he started to back up and I damn near put my fist through the front windshield.  This was with studded leather riding gloves.

I was able to get off the hood, and thankfully the police officer who was right in front of me turned around and took care of things.  I did not have to go to th hospital, though I was bruised and sore.  Nothing broken not badly injured.  The bike had the front forks bent completely back so they bent the exhaust pipes.

It is possible that the biker in the ad could have slowed down by noticing the clueless driver.  However, it is not the bikers fault.  It is th drivers fault.  Your type of thinking leads to the current situation of people getting slapped on the wrist for creaming a biker.  "Oh, it's the bikers fault, we'll let you go with a warning". 

Yes, there are many things that people can do to prevent injury, either from some event which is their fault or someone elses.  However, just beacuse you can do something to mitigate someone elses stupidity, does not mean that if you fail to do so the accident is "the bikers fault".

Brian

[Mutt]

A hit like that & i doubt any amount of body armor will let you walk away...
You know what the bottom line is? that crash is the RIDERS fault.
It is his resonisibility to S.I.P.D.E.

I would have to disagree Lucky.? On both of these points.? I've walked away from a hit like that.? I t-boned a pickup truck just in front of the drivers side door.? I was doing about 25 on city streets.? The pickup driver (a teen abut 19) thought he could make it in front of me.? I hit him with little chance of braking.? I flew over the handle bars and landed on his hood.? From what I was told, he started to back up and I damn near put my fist through the front windshield.? This was with studded leather riding gloves.

I was able to get off the hood, and thankfully the police officer who was right in front of me turned around and took care of things.? I did not have to go to th hospital, though I was bruised and sore.? Nothing broken not badly injured.? The bike had the front forks bent completely back so they bent the exhaust pipes.

It is possible that the biker in the ad could have slowed down by noticing the clueless driver.? However, it is not the bikers fault.? It is th drivers fault.? Your type of thinking leads to the current situation of people getting slapped on the wrist for creaming a biker.? "Oh, it's the bikers fault, we'll let you go with a warning".?

Yes, there are many things that people can do to prevent injury, either from some event which is their fault or someone elses.? However, just beacuse you can do something to mitigate someone elses stupidity, does not mean that if you fail to do so the accident is "the bikers fault".

Brian

I can see Brian's point from a legal stand point, but at the same time I believe Lucky's suggestion about the biker was that he probably could have avoided the accident had he been a little more aware of the situation, sort of anticipated it a little more. It's a different kind of "fault" when your discussing how to prevent rather than who's to blame after-the-fact.

The biker: "It's my fault. I didn't anticipate what could have happened and taken?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?measures to prevent it". (prevention)

The cage: "It's my fault. I didn't see him and I pulled right out in front of him".? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (Post accident legal fault)

Mutt? :)

[Brian Moffet]

he probably could have avoided the accident had he been a little more aware of the situation, sort of anticipated it a little more.

Actually my point is not a legal one.  What you said is true.  The failure to do this does not make it the bikers fault. 

Transfering fault lke this is not a valid thing to do.  You're blaming the victim here, not the cause of the accident.  That's like saying it's a woman's fault for getting raped because she was wearing a short skirt.

Brian

[Lucky]

I will disagree on this one, I think riding a bike is like a girl wearing a short skirt (i'm not trying to be funny here) & it's the riders/ girls responsability to avoid putting ones self in a dangerous situation..  within reason.

a biker should expect that since he is less visable, less of a "threat" that it's likely a cage will not see him & pull out or whatever, put him in harms way.  simalarly, it's the girls responsability to realise that in short skirt, it's not wise to walk down an innercity ally late at night alone....

taking Reasonable precautions & being aware.  i'm not saying that eirther deserves the consequenses though..
my.02
--Lucky

[h2olawyer]

As I see it, Lucky and Brian are looking at it from different points of view.? Lucky from the "anticipatory rider" view & Brian from the "after it happened" view.? Both are correct, just different points in time and to different audiences.

When a motorcycle rider is approaching the situation, the rider needs to anticipate what could happen.? Not "what if the cage driver does X", but rather I will make a move (swerve, slow, accelerate, turn,etc.) when the driver does X".? It is a matter of being decisive and acting well in advance of the potential threat.? If your mind has already anticipated what is happening, your reaction time is decreased, making accident avoidance more likely.? (Lucky's point of 'rider fault'.)

As a rider, one needs to be aware this situation is one of the most common causes of crashes.? Developing both mental and physical skills to avoid this type of impact are part of becoming a better rider.? In the MSF course I took last summer, they would have said the motorcycle rider should have anticipated the action of the driver and been able to avoid (or at least decrease the severity of) the impact.? It is a matter of how one mentally approaches riding.? Most (but not all) crashes are avoidable.? It is not shifting the blame, but rather taking responsibility for your own safety on the road.? ?

All that being said, there will still be times when the rider is out of options and the crash happens.? Sounds like that's what happened to Brian.? Glad you came through it without seroius injury.

From a public policy consideration, (Brian's equally valid point), these type of accidents must always be viewed as the fault of the cage driver - assuming the motorcyclist is obeying all traffic laws (yes, including speed limits).? They should be reported as such in both the news media and the police accident report.? I, too, am sick of hearing about drivers killing and maiming riders & getting low fines without any threat of jail time.? I would like to see a motorcycle awareness section added to all state driver's license exams.? Some states have started discussing & legislating for them - I believe Michigan is one.? I will likely start pursuing something similar in the Colorado legislature next year.

For more information, check out the AMA program on this subject:
www.amadirectlink.com/justice/index.asp

Just my $0.0725 (inflation + legal fees)
Hope my maximum verbosity didn't bore y'all too much! ;D

H2O

[Superfly]

Damn good discussion going on.

I was taught to ride like I am invisible.  I agree.  I expect people to pull in front of me, cut me off, and alot of times I am able to avoid all incidents.  Once I was on the freeway right next to a car, and they came over into my lane, and bumped my bike!   I was going about 50, and scared the crap outta me!  I gripped the handlebars tight, because they started to shake (from being pushed sidewas about 5 feet) and thankfully was able to regain control, and not go down on a busy freeway.

Ride like you are invisible!

[Lucky]

& Brian, i'll retract the word "fault", it isn't my intent to place blame.

[QBS]

Superfly, that is why you never ride next to another vehicle any longer than you have to, if at all possible, given the traffic conditions of the moment.  Speed up. Slow down.  Do something.  Just don't stay there.  If you absolutely can't move from there, at least try and move up into the drivers field of view.  Then move as far over in your lane as possible to put as much space/time between you and the car as possible.  Then, watch that car like a hawk, and at the absolute very first sign of it moving into your space, get on the horn and stay there until the car moves away.  Move up into the drivers' view if at all possible.

I have never had any formal rider training.  Started riding on the street in '56 at the age of 11 years.  I was blessed to survive long enough to learn to ride as if I were invisable, but...if they could see me,.....they'd be out to get me.

Hope this helps somebody avoid trouble.  Cheers.

[Mutt]

& Brian, i'll retract the word "fault", it isn't my intent to place blame.

Actually your right retracting the word "fault". That's what happens after an accident. What should be said is "added responsibility" for the biker and just repsonsibilty for the cage.? I put added for the biker simply because there is much more to lose for him/her.? :)

Looking at it from a legal standpoint there wouldn't be any difference it were a bike or a car. The car that pulled out would still be at fault. That is if the on coming car (right of way) was obeying the speed limit.

Mutt

[Paul_Jungnitsch]

I just ordered an ICON vest, based on some good reviews. It's cheap and it goes overtop, so I don't have to change the rest of my gear. I'll review it here after I've had a chance to try it out.

[hfarley]

Wow you guys have a reealy good discussion going on here.  I won't get into the whole who's fault is it portion though. I did take the Rider's Ed course and I feel that helps you to becoime more aware of your driving both on a motorcycle and in a car. I will say that ever since the class I have approached driving whatever mode of transportation a bit differently and more cautiously.  I do however agree that one should try to make oneself as visable as possible. Hey it can't hurt right?  I have a reflective vest that I put on when I ride at night and I found these great little gadgets at Lowes. They are reflective strips that have  a  snap on them. You push the side and it blinks. You can have it steady on at all times or you can have it flashing. When I ride at night I put them on flashing and I have them on both the back of my bike and on my backpack. I also position them both up and down and side to side so that it catches your attaention faster. I also drive with those tireflies on my wheels in red. No they don't help too much but I figure that someone coming towards me from the side might do a second glance. The strap things that I was talking about can be found at the link below. AT around $10.00 a piece I feel they are worth the money to make drivers take a second glance in my direction.
-Heather
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=172988-76951-NAB-03&lpage=none
Be seen - with RED L.E.D. Flash or Glow Illumination. Adjustable Elastic strap with quick-release buckle.
Flexible, lightweight design
Push-button power switch - Flash or glow modes
Shock & Weather resistant
Visible over 1 mile in the dark
Easy to replace long-life battery included
100,000 hour L.E.D. life
Perfect replacement for chemical light sticks

[Phatjap]

That advert posted at the start of this topic is shown regularily here. Bike safety ads were very common in the late 70's 80's here when it was deemed riders were dying unecesarily, very often and mostly from both parties, bikers and drivers ignorance.They stopped for a while, this one seems to have popped up recently to keep us on our toes, so to speek.
It is hard to get a liscence here now due to very stringent laws, my riding instructor informs me the government and certain road safety bodies would like to see, and are actively campagining as we speak to remove them from UK roads all together.
wether it will happen or not is debatable, but HUGE numbers of motorcyclists have dimimnished from the roads in the past 20 years due the ever increasing costs, the difficulty in obtaining a liscence and accidents involving bikes etc etc.
On certain days I dont see any bikes on my way to work, and it can be like that for a couple of days, then I might only see one or two. Admittedly its only spring, and summer will bring out more, but when I first started riding 20 years ago it seemd  like there were as many bikes as cars all year round.
When I do see riders, nearly all wear those hi-vis waist-coats, including myself, night and day.
I am a beleiver that we should do everything possible to be seen with hi-vis gear, for our own safety,  I dont just want to be seen and forgotten, I want people to be AWARE I am on the road and CANT forget I'm there....

Ride safe,

Phatjap.

[Coil Coyle]

When I approach an uncontrolled intersection where a car is waiting to enter, I always slow way down and approach at a speed that is so slow that no matter what the driver may do, I have viable avoidance options.? You never go flying through uncontrolled intersections where cars are waiting.? Control your own destiny.? Don't put it in a strangers hands.

QBS,
? ? ? ? I agree with your intersection strategy and use it for oncoming left turns too.
? ? ? ? I also flash my light Hi / Lo and weave a little, the first weave toward the vehicle that is a threat. I got the weave idea from someones post here,? ;)? then experience taught me the direction the first weave should be.
? ? ? ? I think the mind of the driver that is going to accidently kill you is busy calculating a balance between their personal schedule, which requires them to cross in front of your path, and your rights of way.? In this equation you are of little relative worth.? :-[ They often pull into your path.?
? ? ? ? :o? But when you weave toward them, there is an instant in which their animal instincts for survival assert themselves.? :o You might be out of control and heading at them! This brief flicker interupts their ego's need for haste with a concern for their immediate safety. They resolve this crisis by sitting still and watching carefully.
? ? ? ?Literally, it changes the other drivers channel!!!! ;)
? ? ? ?All of my commuting, rain,fog or shine, is by motorcycle on two lane country roads into 4 lane stop light suburbs. In the year since I read this strategy and started using it, I have not seen one front wheel creep forward on a side road or, on a left turn, steer even slightly more after I have steered at them.
? ? ? ?You can watch the driver as you travel safely by and see that they are carefully avoiding you by staying still.
? ? ? ?Before learning this strategy, I would often cross eyes with a driver, feel they had seen me, and then have them turn into my path or pull out anyway.? :o
? ? ? The weave changes their channel.
? ? ? Please,Do not believe me, try it until you prove to yourself that I am wrong
:-\
$.02
coil?

Bump for Weaving, in honor of P Rex's left side hit.

$0.02

coil