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XZ400 Discovery Tour

Started by XZv2, February 11, 2007, 03:08:41 AM

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XZv2

Hi, Riche, Kiwibum and others, I am back after a busy period.
I put the 550 and 400 parts on the workbench today and measured up all parts. Riche, you were right with the idea that the distance between the 400 piston pin and the top of the piston is larger than in a 550. Indeed that distance is exactly 3,7 mm larger, and it makes up for the shorter stroke. 
The connecting rods are the same.
The piston pin of the 550 is 3 mm longer than the 400 (69 vs 66 mm) and has a thicker wall, same outside diameter to fit the rod.
Striking is the larger water mantle in the cylinder of the 400.
I put pictures of the 400 and 550 pistons fitted to one piston pin and some other pictures on xz550.nl topic XZ400.
XZv2

Lucky

Excellent write up XZ, thanks!
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

kiwibum

Hey Great work XZv2
I'm assuming the valve sizing is different in the heads as well between the two.  Looks like a capacity upgrade on a 400 might not be that difficult, something I want to work on in the summer, I would like to build a 650cc motor. 400 are easy to get here to use and make spares, 550 not so easy.

Steve

XZv2

Yes, Kiwibum, the valve sizes are different between the 400 and 550 and also between inlets and exhausts. I will measure them, 400 is really smaller than 550.
The camshaft are different too. The inletcams of the 400 have a height of 36,3 mm (550: 36,8 mm) and the exhausts 35,4 (550:36,3).
Also, look at the picture of the 400 cylinder with the large water mantle at xz550.nl topic xz400. I doubt if this cylinder has enough "meat" to bore it out for the use of a big oversize piston.
Probably for making a 650 it would be best to use 550 cylinders and use oversize pistons in it, 550 cylinder heads (for the bigger valves) and 550 camshafts, and make your own longstroke crankshaft. XZv2

kiwibum

Thanks XZv2
I figured that I might need the 550 heads and cylinders to build something bigger but was hoping on being able to do it just with a 400???. Shame, another poor 400 has just come up on the local auction site for $80NZ, very tempting to get for parts but I've already got one for that. Anyone interested in 400 gearing, flywheel, short bar raisers, 83 style foot pegs etc? Maybe could do a swap for some 550 heads & cylinders. Might put a post up for it.

OK, I see what you mean about the "water mantle" now, I was originally thinking I would be able to resleeve it for the larger bore. Cams are easy to deal with, will need the profiles reground anyway from what I understand, meet a guy while I was in the US that had a shop designing cams and said to contact him once I'm at that stage for help on profiles. Bigger valves and ports more difficult, doable but easier to get 550 ones as you say.

Thanks again for all the photos and measurements.

Night Vision

Quote from: kiwibum on April 24, 2007, 04:09:35 AM

.... Anyone interested in 400 gearing, flywheel, short bar raisers, 83 style foot pegs etc? Maybe could do a swap for some 550 heads & cylinders.


I would be interested... the snazzy XZ400 seat with the seat strap would be desireable too.
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

kiwibum

Coil, NV
I can accommodate both of you, the more 550 engine parts I have as spares the better. I've bought the bike in the auction plus I have a spare already, I've been considering collecting spare bikes since some parts might be useful to you guys in the US.

XZv2

Hi, Kiwibum and Robin Hood,
Kiwibum, at last I had time to measure the valves: the valve sizes of the 400 are 27 mm inlet valves and 23 mm exhaust valves (550 has 31 mm inlet and 26 mm exh., real big difference).
I also have a set of 550 Euro primary gears (72/34 teeth) for you in exchange for a 400 set. These 72/34 gears are certainly the best for an over-550 XZ.
I sent an email with photo of the heads to your email address. I hear from other people sometimes my outgoing or incoming mail is not working??!!
You can mail me at xzv2@hotmail.com. It works now.
Robin Hood, I sent you an email a few weeks ago on the 400 parts you might need. Mail me at xzv2@hotmail.com if you need parts. 
XZv2

The Prophet of Doom

Recently I discovered a XZ400 Supplementary manual, which I scanned and sent to Lucky for inclusion on his manuals CD.  This has all the measurements (and clearances) you can shake your stick at.

According to this the valve diameter for the for the 400 are IN 31mm (1.22in) EX 26mm (1.02in) so if XZv2 is correct heres a warning that all the data may not be correct, or there may be differences between XZ400 models


Night Vision

Quote from: roro on May 07, 2007, 08:32:22 PM
Recently I discovered a XZ400 Supplementary manual, which I scanned and sent to Lucky for inclusion on his manuals CD.  This has all the measurements (and clearances) you can shake your stick at.

According to this the valve diameter for the for the 400 are IN 31mm (1.22in) EX 26mm (1.02in) so if XZv2 is correct heres a warning that all the data may not be correct, or there may be differences between XZ400 models


or that the manuals contain mis-information... seems like a coincidence that they are the same size as the 550?
I would bet on XZv2's measurements being the correct values.
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

The Prophet of Doom


Quoteor that the manuals contain mis-information... seems like a coincidence that they are the same size as the 550?
I would bet on XZv2's measurements being the correct values.

Yeah that's what I meant.  I was trying to warn peopple that the books should not be taken as gospel, but unfortunately ended up slurring XZv2's good name.  I apologise for this XZv2, and will re-word myself...

According to this the valve diameter for the for the 400 are IN 31mm (1.22in) EX 26mm (1.02in) so if XZv2 is correct (and I assume he is as he has a valve and a ruler in his hand) heres a warning that all the data (in the supplement) may not be correct, or there may be differences between XZ400 models.

I know that there are at least some differences between XZ400s, for example my 400 and the one parked down the road do not have slotted disks but most I have seen do;  mine has air forks, but the one down the road does not; neither have the alloy footpegs or adjustable rear shock that XZv2 talks about on his site.  Neither of us have been into the insides of our engines so cannot comment on this.


XZv2

#51
Hi, Roro, and NightVision,
I photographed the 550 and 400 heads next to each other, clearly showing the difference in valve sizes. Usually I can show pictures on xz550.nl but our provider changed last week and, unfortunately I cannot upload new pictures for the time being. I will try to put the picture in this post. If you doubliclick on the picture you can see that the 400 head (left) has smaller valves.
My measurements of the 550 valves (31 and 26 mm) are confirmed by the Yamaha data (Euro Service manual 550 page 8-6; 550RJ US Service Manual page 8-4).
Anyway with the smaller bore of the 400 (73 mm in stead of 80 mm of the 550) it would be a wonder to have two 31 mm inlet valves side by side and a sparkplug in the centre......

Roro, I am very glad that you mention the data published in the 400 supplement. In this way we know where the faults are. There are more wrong data in the XZ manuals, for instance the Yamaha service manual of the Euro XZ550 wants you to believe the 5th speed gear wheel is a 70 teeth pinion gear in the XZ gearbox on page 8-71 (XZ550RJ manual has the same fault on page 8-23), and Haynes copied this fault on page 84). I counted the teeth of the 550 wheel and the correct figure is 30 teeth.

Very interesting, Roro to hear that there exists a XZ400 supplementary manual, I suppose it is a Yamaha Service Manual? Where was it published and as supplement to which Service Manual? Is it clear from the manual for which market the bikes of this Service Manual were meant. I have different Yamaha Service Manuals for the European 1982 550 models and for the US 1982 550RJ models. Is there perhaps also a different manual for the East Asia, Australia+New Zealand XZ550 + supplement XZ400??
XZv2

 

The Prophet of Doom

The XZ400 Supplement I have is 14X-28197-20, 1st edition, Sept 1985, Yamaha Motor Co, Japan.  It's for the 14x models starting Frame number 14X-000101 to to be read in conjunction with the  XZ550RJ Service Manual 16R-28197-60. 
I also have a XZ550 Service Guide, Yamaha Motor Co, Overseas Service Dept, Oct 1981, but it does not have a ref code on it.  Specs in this are for Euro models.

It's more common for Aus/NZ to get Euro models than Asia market models.  The 14x supplement includes wiring for the annoying speed flasher so am assuming for Asian market 400s.  The XZ400 sold here in the 80s did not have these.  Suits me as mine was imported used from Japan.

I have scanned both of these (10MB total) and sent to Lucky for inclusion on the CD as I believe he has somehow paid for the rights to publish these. 

Perhaps the administrators could start a sticky for manual errata?

XZv2

Thanks, Roro, that's interesting information! The XZ550RJ Service Manual for the US models that I have has code 11616-02-82. The 550 Manual you have probably is for non-US 550RJ models?

Very interesting to know if in your 550RJ Manual in Chapter 2 under IDLE SPEED is mentioned in a frame :
Engine idle 1,100 +/- 50 r/min Pilot air screw 2 +/- 1/2 turn (such as in my Euro book), or just
Engine idle 1,300 +/- 50 r/min (such as in my US 550RJ Manual).

The EURO Service Manual is a trilingual book (English, German & French) and it has code 11U-28197-80, but that code is not mentioned in the book (such as in the RJ book) but in the right side corner of the front cover where is also mentioned XZ550 and '82.

Would indeed be a very good idea to look for a place where all misprints, typos and faults of the XZ Manuals are available for all of us. I just correct my manuals by hand if I see or are informed on such faults.
XZv2

haunter

well, speak quickly if you want em, before I toss em, I have a spare 550 engine with a bad piston and second gear, its got some very mild rust in the jug bore, nothing a hone shouldnt fix.

its mostly apart.

I would be willing to ship it for cost to anyone who wants it for checking, of course that could cost ALOT to get down under!
82 with fairing, rejetted, 83 turbo seca fork and brakes coming whenver I acquire the rest of the parts, and she stops breaking long enough to be in the garage for an upgrade instead of a repair.

The Prophet of Doom

XZv2, neither of mine specify number of turns though do note idle speed.
550=1100
400=1300 +/- 50

The Prophet of Doom

I tell a lie,
The XZ400 Supplement shows under Carburetor:

Pilot Screw (PS) 3-1/2 +/- 1/2

Other carb Specs:
Main Jet Front 107.5 Rear 110
Main Air Jet 1.8
Throttle Valve #120
Pilt Jet #60
Pilot Air Jet #145
Valve Seat 1.8
Starter Jet #40
Fuel Level 21 +/- 1mm
Float Height 36 +/- 1mm
Idle Speed 1,300 +_/- 50 rpm
Vacuum pressure at idle > 150mm (5.91 in Hg)
Vacuum Sync Difference < 10mm (0.39 in Hg)

XZv2

Thank you, Roro. I was interested in the first place whether your XZ550RJ Manual shows the "US-RJ data" (1300 rpm and no indication of pilot screw adjustment) for the 550 or the Euro data (1100 rpm +/- 50 and 2 turns out +/- 1/2).
Surprisingly, it shows a mix of both: 1100 and no indication of pilot screw adjustment.
And the supplement for the 400 does give a pilot screw adjustment.
Thank you for giving also the complete data for the 400 carburettor.
With your permission I will copy these data to the XZ400 topic on xz550.nl, mentioning: "source: Yamaha Service Manual, supplement for XZ400, # 14X-28197-20, 1st edition, published Sept 1985, data kindly supplied by roro"   
I have there a photo of an XZ400 carburetter with some data.
Would be nice to make the data complete with those you give here.
Only if you agree to this, of course.
XZv2

The Prophet of Doom

Sure, no problems.
Let me know what other data you want.  I don't want to incur the wrath of the copyright nazis, but they cannot restrict the distribution of facts


XZv2

Thanks, roro, that very kind. We're not publishing the content of books that people have available for sale....; we're just making available maintenance data to people addicted to a motorcycle of which production stopped 20+ years ago.....

As to other interesting data: I do not know what other data are in the XZ400 supplement.
Are there any illustrations in it that apply specifically to the 400?
If you compare the Appendices and Maintenance Spefications at the end of 400 Supplementary Manual with those of the 550RJ, you will see where any differences are. Those are interesting for 400 owners, I think.
Most of the maintenance procedures are similar as those of the 550, and most of the data are similar, I expect.
Thanks again, XZv2