New To The Vision (Not really anymore, but working it out)

[inanecathode]

I'm located up near Black Hawk if you're familiar with the area.

Well i got the battery back in the bike and hooked up (correctly i assume, hooded wire/red wire goes on positive, correct?). With the key off my dvom reads 12.6 volts, key on 11.5.
Upon starting:Rather loud click/quiet clunk and nothing. DVOM says it goes from 11.5 volts to 3 (7 volt drain o_O)
I think i can feel a bit of a click from the starter, and definitely a loud, feelable click/clunk coming from a cylinder mounted near the battery (starter selenoid?)

I'm thinking either the battery is pooped from sitting out for a year, or the starter is flooded (just guessing, i have no idea outside of a dead battery why i'd clack, but not turn the starter)

I couldn't get the clutch lever to go back, i put it in gear, rocked it back and forth, even went down the driveway (uhg, had to push it back up) at 15mph mph and popped it up into second, still nothing. (If it helps any, the clutch is pulled back enough that it barely starts slowing down if i pop it in gear while in motion.

I had the clutch inspection cover (giant plastic screw/cover) off, and im not seeing anything other than a bolt coming through with a nut on it, and a ring of bolts. Is there something i should be looking for? Tell me if this is a good plan: Try to take the clutch cable off and see if its actually the cable or the clutch pack itself. If it's the cable then i should lube it? (what are these exactly, i couldnt find any at harbor freight) If it's the clutch pack it's self, i figure i'll just pull the right side cover off and um... hit it with something?

Anyway, thanks for your continual help.

[Lucky]

definetly pull the cable & see if it's frozen...after sitting a year, it's likely.  also, if i remember right, there is a spring on the pivot under the bike that the cable hooks to. is yours there?

no, don't "Hit stuff".  get a manual for the bike (i offer them on CD plus a ton of other stuff as well, pm me if interested) & that will guide you thru testing & repair...

--Lucky

[h2olawyer]

I know the area fairly well - Blackhawk & Central City.  Kind of ruined the towns when they allowed casino gambling, though.  Haven't been there since.  Hope you aren't closely tied to the gaming industry.  If so, I don't mean any harm.  A former Forest Service associate of my dad moved there after he retired.

One of my favorite rides in this area is from Estes Park to Nederland.  You're not too much farther down that road.

Once I get my V running & charging again - should be next week - I can take a ride down your way for a visit & see how you're proceeding - provided the roads are getting sand free.

Definitely lube your clutch cable.  You can make a lube setup by using some plastic wrap around the cable, sealed around the housing with a rubber band.  Pour a little oil into the "funnel" and let it  drain down until you see some coming out the bottom end of the cable.  Even if that's not your problem, it will serve a necessary maintenance function.  A cable luber is a small item that attaches to the end of the cable & allows you to spray chain / cable lube directly into the housing.  Most motorcycle shops should carry them or be able to order one for you.

Here's one by Motion Pro from Dennis Kirk:

www.denniskirk.com/jsp/search/search.jsp?resultType=results&store=Main&searchString=cable%2Bluber%2Bis_nla%253A%2B0%2B%2Bbrand_id%253A%2B498&userString=cable+luber&page=1

H₂O

[Retro Randy]

Hi everybody :D
I'm new to the Vision (1982 according to the title, 1983 according to the seller). I recently bought one for a paltry 400 bucks. Seat in good condition, all plastics present, free rolling in neutral, parked in a shed for a year cause the guy didnt have time to fix it properly.

The good:
Plastics mostly there (missing left side battery cover)
Seat perfect besides a small tear right in the middle
Electrics good (possibly not the starter, more on that later)
Brand new tires (yaaaaay)
Original keys (nice huh?)
Fork seals apparently good
$400 why not?

The bad:
Starter (i can hear a relay or something clicking, after reading this site over a bit i think it might be full of oil)
Clutch won't return (clutch lever pulled, won't return, clutch constantly disengaged [i've had this on a suzuki before, and it was just the clutch splines crapped up])

The ugly:
Part of the driveshaft is uglified with rust (surface rust though, no worries)

Im looking forward to sharing my Vision Journey with you all :D


Part two:
(im deciding to include this in the same post as to not spam the forum with my stupid questions :D)

Has anyone here ever had their clutch not want to return back? Where is the clutch pack anyway, i can see the cable going to a little armature thats directly beneath the middle of the case (i hope its not there :o) What precautions/procedures do i need to take to get to the clutch pack to see if its just sticking because it's dry?

How do i go about fiding the following:
New oil seal for the starter
Brake pads for the front disc
Battery cover (left side)


Thanks in advance for your help :D
(pictures on the way :D!)

welcome to ROV. If you need parts I have some in the "swap shop" section of the forum.

[inanecathode]

Actually i live right on highway 119, the highway that goes between estes park and black hawk, small world, eh? Blackhawk itself is totally gone, replaced by casinos, central city is alright though, still all the old buildings around.

Is there anyway to force the oil from the luber down inside the cable, i'm thinking if its frozen the oil will just sit in the funnel and not drain down through the cable.

I havent checked directly but i do remember a spring being hooked around the pivot down there. I nudged it a bit with a deadblow and a screwdriver (lightly, dont worry :P) and it didnt budge.

I did order a repair manual, haynes both for my vision and my xt250 (anyone know any xt250 forums lol?)

h2o if you want to swing by some time that'd be cool :D, maybe go for a trail right with my dualsport :P

[QBS]

Very rare for a clutch to stick in the disengaged position.  Investigate clutch cable routing.  Disconnect cable from clutch arm under right hand side of engine and see if the arm doesn't move back to engaged position.  Suspect either corroded or misrouted cable.

Run car battery power straight to the starter motor using jumper cables.  Positive is connected to the starter motors' power wire attachment lug. Negative is grounded to the engine or frame.  Bike should be in neutral.  If starter motor is good, engine will crank with authority.  Poor cranking means starter probably has a bad oil seal.  Strong cranking can indicate a list of possible problems including: corroded electrical connections at the battery or starter solenoid(however, your click clunk sounds like the solenoid is being activated), and or, a bad battery.

[h2olawyer]

Is there anyway to force the oil from the luber down inside the cable, i'm thinking if its frozen the oil will just sit in the funnel and not drain down through the cable.

I did order a repair manual, haynes both for my vision and my xt250 (anyone know any xt250 forums lol?)

h2o if you want to swing by some time that'd be cool :D, maybe go for a trail right with my dualsport :P

With the plastic wrap method, gravity is all that gets the oil down the cable housing.  The lube tool used a spray type chain / cable lube.  It is forced into the housing by the pressure in the spray can.

Lucky has a FANTASTIC CD-Rom with all the repair manuals, tons of advertising scans, road tests, and other info for the Vision.  Well worth the investment.  Just received mine today.  Well worth the investment & I already have the factory & Haynes repair manuals (analog versions).

When I get the Vision charging again, I'll need to take a road test.  I'll let you know when & maybe we can meet up.  Would like to visit my dad's old work associate & see how he's doing.  He was also my old Boy Scout leader.

H₂O

[inanecathode]

Cool man, sounds good. I'll get a car on it tomorrow, as well as shoot some penetrating oil down the clutch cable.

[Tiger]

I'll get a car on it tomorrow

:) Hi and welcome to the "Family"... 8) If you use a car...make sure the cars ignition is switched OFF.

                                8).......TIGER....... 8)

[inanecathode]

I'll get a car on it tomorrow

:) Hi and welcome to the "Family"... 8) If you use a car...make sure the cars ignition is switched OFF.

                                8).......TIGER....... 8)

Ah! Thank you VERY much, i was actually thinking this and decided that it was best to keep the car running for more juice :o!

[inanecathode]

Turns out it doesnt matter how much juice i have, because theres an open short in the starter. From the car right to the starter i touch the lead to it, and ZAP giant spark, lots of sound, no turning.
I took the starter out (probably the stupidest way, i didnt see how it could only be held on with one screw (turns out two, but one was missing [thank your amature machanic]) so i undid the long phillips head bolts, and pulled on the end of the starter. You can guess what happened then, luckily it was all still more or less together when i finally got the mounting end pried off.
After cleaning it of dirt (dropped on the ground, dirt driveway :D) i discovered a few things:
1) Ancient puddle of oil inside the starter casing (solidified somewhat into a gray paste
2) Someone has been into this starter before, for a few reasons:
    a) One of the orings that encompass the starter case was split, then glued back together/onto the starter
    b) The armature is scarred with sloppy tool work
    c) The commuter had been ghetto undercut with what might have been a chisel
3) The commuter is jacked up real bad, undercut with a chisel and apparently a shakey hand, the flats of the commuter are scarred to hell, and for the brushes sake, thank god it never turned, it would have ground those brushes down in a hurry
4) Oil, everywhere, inside the starter
5) I am an idiot, for two reasons:
    a) I didnt scribe the starter, at all, so even if i can get it back together, i wont know which part goes where
    b) Didnt spend the time fiding out how the starter comes out, so i ended up splitting the starter while on the bike (duh)
    c) (Potentially the most damaging) forgot to unbolt the power wire going to the starter when i threw the jumpers on there, thank god the selenoid wasnt activated or a recon i would have sent 24 volts through the poor thing :o

Anyway, i dont have a camera to get pictures, but it looks like the commuter is jacked. The flats are kinda pushed into eachother, and whats worse is the vertical portion (part that slopes out from the axis) is all pushed together too. I dont know if it's salvagable, or if it would actually be worth salvaging.
How do i test if the flats are touching? I dont know really how a starter works, and i imagine the ohm setting on my dvom wont really help, as the coils are touching inside the armature.

Which leads right on into my next question :D Is it worth rebuilding this? Its not just the seal, its the commuter/armature, seal, and the lack of scribage that leads me to think that its not really worth rebuilding. I don't trust professionals much in stuff like this (due to the fact that to do good work you have to care about what you're working on) and the guy who sold me the bike said "i had a mechanic work on it" and he jacked it up anyway. How much are new/rebuilt starters? How much would just the armature/commuter (in good condition) be, and would it be worth buying just that, and swapping my crap one for that one?



Act II: The clutch

Good news here (for what it's worth) while the oil was draining (curiously golden, lack of use altogether) VERY slowly (bike got cooooooold last night) i was dinking around with the clutch pivot thingamajig and happen to pry it out further, and it .... Moved! I then pried it out further, launched some profanity and tongue maneuvering at it and got the cable free, and the clutch pivot snapped right back to where it was supposed to, leaving me with the completely (omg is it ever) frozen clutch cable. I HIGHLY doubt i'll be able to free this, vice grips and a vise couldnt get the cable to budge, i think it's trashed.

Which leads me to my second question :D How much is a rebuilt/new clutch cable? Doesnt seem too special outside of the little steel circle that routes into the ring in the case right next to the pivot.


So in summary for those who are lazy like me (:D) and dont want to read this drivel:
Clutch cable is frozen, likely trashed
Starter commuter is all sorts of messed up, likely trashed
How much are clutch cables, rebuilt or new?
How much are starters, rebuilt or new?
Is it worth replacing/rebuilding just the armature/commuter?
How do i test the commuter to see if the flats are touching?

[kwells]

you need this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Yamaha-OEM-Clutch-Cable-XZ550-XZ-550-1982_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ50462QQitemZ270056057031QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V

that will take care of that...
sounds like you need in the very least a diagram to get ur starter back together...or perhaps Tiger can assist in providing a working version to you or even both items

[Tiger]

you need this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Yamaha-OEM-Clutch-Cable-XZ550-XZ-550-1982_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ50462QQitemZ270056057031QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V

that will take care of that...
sounds like you need in the very least a diagram to get ur starter back together...or perhaps Tiger can assist in providing a working version to you or even both items

:'(...Sorry, S.O.L. when it comes to starter motor's, they are like rocking horses shite around these parts :'( However, I should have a used working clutch cable...

                                      8).......TIGER....... 8)

[QBS]

Suggest you forget about any thought of salvaging your starter motor.  Its' got way too much baggage to deal with.  Start searching ebay, junk yards, and maybe Old Biker Barn(google it) for a used replacement.  Get Lucky's CD.  It might be possible to salvage your clutch cable with PB Blaster, but in the long run you'll probably be better off with a new one.

[inanecathode]

It might not be so bad actually, in my haste to diagnose the commuter i forgot to test whether the brushes, even if the terminal was grounded. I figured it might not be after thinking a bit because of two things:
1) I didnt see any burn marks on the commuter, if it was such a fat short, there had to be some sort of scortch mark
2) I didnt clean the oil totally off the cap portion

For about 30 seconds, i had conductance from the positive brush to the cap metal, then it went away. Even stranger is that i got 10 ohms or so between the negetive brush and the positive terminal. Even more worrying was that with the armature inserted and sitting where it's supposed to, i get ZERO resistance from the case to the positive terminal...

Perhaps i could clean up the commuter a bit, run a chisel across the gaps, sand it a bit then just cleaaaaan the thing?  :P ::)


Edit: PS Pictures coming soon of the starter AND the bike :D (just a hint, the pipes are /fantastically/ clean and rust free :D)

Edit2: The more i think about it the more it looks like somebody looked at the bike, said "bad starter" took the starter apart, cleaned it, maybe put new brushes in (brushes look brand new), tried to start it, it shorted, then said "Eh, it's a Vision, of course it doesnt run"

Edit3: (gah, keep thinking of things to tell you guys) The starter looks keyed, and other than screwing up the shims (i think they're shims, thin washers on either side of the armature [omg that explains the weird wearing, previous inept mechanic screwed up the shims and ended up smashing the brushes against the side of the commuter]) i dont think i can put it together wrong, maybe put the planetary off by a tooth, but i can tell its wrong by just turning it by hand me thinks.

[h2olawyer]

You WILL know if the planetary gears are off by a tooth.  It will be very difficult to turn.

Glad you are getting things sorted out.

H₂O

[YellowJacket!]

You might want to look into having the starter rebuilt.  I got lucky and drove 50 miles to a literal hole in the wall shop (aint they the best though) with piles of old starters and alternators on the floor and got mine rebuilt for 50.00.  When I got it back it looked brand new.  And better yet... it worked.
Mine was probably in better shape than yours.  It was filled with oil and the brushes were crap, and there was the goo in it too.  :o

Oh, and to reiterate that battery thing.  (even though thats less of a problem for you now)..I left mine on the tender overnight until the green light came on and wham started right up.  These bikes are battery hogs.  They lovem fully charged.

David

[h2olawyer]

My V has lived on a battery tender for three years.  I agree - these bikes require all the battery you can give 'em.

H₂O

[Lucky]

PLEASE don't use a chisel to undercut the mica on the comutator!

a simple & effective, (& correct!) tool is to use a fine tooth hacksaw blade. get a handle for it (fits around the blade) or wrap it in electrical tape to hold it.

--Lucky

[inanecathode]

I'm lucky enough to have an electrical system GOD for a instructor in my school, who specializes in stereos and starting systems, i'll take the kit and kaboodle to school and have him look it over. Im definetly thinking fixing whatever is hard shorting should be a priority, before i go get the thing rebuilt.

How do i go about getting the clutch cable and new starter seal on the way here? How does it work, buying something from somebody on this forum o_O?