Author Topic: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...  (Read 35647 times)

dj

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #220 on: June 19, 2007, 07:15:47 AM »
Tiger is saving me again.   ;D
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dj

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #221 on: June 30, 2007, 05:51:04 PM »
Another big thanks sent out to Tiger for getting me the cables and solenoid so quickly.  Cables look great.

So I've been working on the bike some more, but still no life in her.  The first problem was when I put the tank and set it to prime.  After about 15 seconds I had gas coming out the drain line again.  This happened last year (stuck float), so I take everything apart again and check and the floats weren't aligned right so it wasn't shutting the gas flow off.  Checked the manual and set the floats to the correct hiegth (I think, the manual is a little foggy on this subject).  Let everything dry out again as it flooded out when I tried to start it.  Pulled the plugs and while letting them dry I decided to check the gap on "pregapped" plugs.  Turns out they were sitting at .032 when they are supposed to be between .024 and .028.  So I set the gap properly and let the gas dry off them.  Once everything is dry I put the plugs back in and tighten them down.

Carbs are all put back together and hopefully the floats are set right, if not then I'll have to pull them again and adjust them again.  The book says that they should be at 1.75", but the picture shows them measuring at 1.5" so I put them at 1.6" to split the difference.

Now I am still waiting for the battery to charge back up from the few times that I tried to start it.  Haven't put the tank back on yet.  I want to try just putting a little bit of gas down into each carb and try to get the bike to start that way.  My main concern right now is to get the bike to fire over and run for a few seconds.  After that I'll put the tank back on and fill the carb bowls and see if I can get it to run for a bit that way.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Night Vision

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #222 on: June 30, 2007, 09:05:12 PM »
YICS!!! manual sez 1.72 +/- 0.040in.  ??? ???

1.72"=43.688mm
1.6"=40.64mm

both way high... no wonder you're dumping gaz

the pic in the Haynes manual shows about 1 3/8" which is about 35mm...

pretty sure Lucky recommends 35mm
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
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if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


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Lucky

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #223 on: June 30, 2007, 11:03:29 PM »
First, don't confuse fuel level with float hight. fuel hight is measured with the clear tube on the drain screw.

float hight is the measurement at which the float closes the inlet needle. this determines the fuel level in the bowl.

too low & you'll starve the carbs at high acceleration.
too high & you'll spill fuel out of the overflow tubes.

I have found several 82 carbs where the overflow tubes were installed 2-3mm short of what they should be, it seems to be common (poor quality control).  for this reason, if you have experienced fuel overflowing out the drains for no apparent reason, (& everything else has been taken care of, new needle & seat, etc) it's likely you have one of these carbs.

MODIFIED ADJUSTMENT:

with the needle & seat, and the floats installed turn the cover upside down or at least far enough so the floats are fully down. measure the TOP of the float furthest from the pin to the gasket surface on the underside of the bowl cover (without the gasket)

book specs are 36 mm +\- 1mm. 

if your frequently draining Go-Juice:
39 +\- 1mm

I've set up several carbs like this & the difference of 3 mm lower has never made a bit of difference in performance.  Many happy forum members can attest to this...

--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

Lucky

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #224 on: June 30, 2007, 11:06:20 PM »
BTW, 1.72 +/- 0.040in = 36mm +\- .1mm
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Night Vision

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #225 on: July 01, 2007, 08:24:09 AM »
BTW, 1.72 +/- 0.040in = 36mm +\- .1mm

no sir, 1 and almost 3/4" IS
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
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if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

Lucky

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #226 on: July 01, 2007, 09:37:51 AM »
by golly (did i actually say 'by golly'!!??) your right!

I've allways gone by the book specs to measure float drop.

Quote Yamaha service manual:
Quote
Float hight 36mm +\- .1mm (1.72 +/- 0.040in)
Haynes says the same thing (copied it i assume)

I've allways used the metric side of the equation (metric bike)

I never noticed the discrepency....

some carb guru huh?  :-[

anyway, i'll stick with my current procedures, they work.

also, 1.6 or 7 inches would be lowering the fuel level in the bowls, not raising it, so he's dumping fuel due to junk in the inlet..

--Lucky
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 09:40:59 AM by Lucky »
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

dj

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #227 on: July 01, 2007, 03:07:26 PM »
by golly (did i actually say 'by golly'!!??) your right!

I've allways gone by the book specs to measure float drop.

Quote Yamaha service manual:
Quote
Float hight 36mm +\- .1mm (1.72 +/- 0.040in)
Haynes says the same thing (copied it i assume)

I've allways used the metric side of the equation (metric bike)

I never noticed the discrepency....

some carb guru huh?  :-[

anyway, i'll stick with my current procedures, they work.

also, 1.6 or 7 inches would be lowering the fuel level in the bowls, not raising it, so he's dumping fuel due to junk in the inlet..

--Lucky

What exactly do you mean by inlet...

I haven't put the tank back on yet.  I am rigging up a small bottle to act as a "fuel tank" as I know the petcock is not working properly (I want to rule out the petcock as the problem).  My plan is to use the bottle to fill the bowls (and use the clear tube trick to  check the level of the fuel) and see if the floats are set right, if not then I will have only used a little bit of fuel as opposed to having it "gush" out with the tank on.  If fuel doesn't come out I plan on trying to run the bike for a bit with the bottle hooked up.  Does this sound logical to anyone else or am I just going out on a limb of the crazy tree?  I am getting pretty stumped by this bike.  I am almost about ready to just put her off to the side and not touch it again until I get the black bike on the 19th.  That one already runs, just needs the carbs cleaned and tuned.  I am working on getting a set of carbs ready to pop into the black bike and then ride that one.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Night Vision

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #228 on: July 01, 2007, 05:02:32 PM »

also, 1.6 or 7 inches would be lowering the fuel level in the bowls, not raising it, so he's dumping fuel due to junk in the inlet..


after about 20 miles into my ride this morning I realized I had it backwards... gahhh  :-[ too late to turn back!

the Haynes has the inches listed first
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
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if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

Lucky

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #229 on: July 03, 2007, 08:15:58 PM »
Ok, DJ here we go:

Petcock operation
Prime - fuel flows freely.
On & Res - fuel flows only when petcock is getting vacuume pulses from the intake.

fuel level in the carbs:

set the float level to a touch more than than 1.4 (36 mm) this means when the float is all the way 'up' the inlet needle is closed (inlet needle is the 'pin' the float moves, the 'seat' is the brass piece under it)
you measure float level by removing the top of the carb, without the gasket, turn it upside down & measure fron the underside of the top (gasket surface) to the top edge of the float.

don't worry so much about the fuel level with the tube test. you can do it, but it's not as critical.

do you have a fuel filter installed? you MUST.

is the tank clean & completely free of rust? it must be or you'll trap junk in the petcock too.

let us know how it goes.

--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

jasonm.

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #230 on: July 04, 2007, 02:58:45 PM »
DJ, even with the petcock on prime. Fuel should not be coming out the overflow tubes. If it does..this issue is level, or needle-seat issues. I have run mine for hours on prime. No gas anywhere but where it should be. Simply,This is because the needle seals the float chamber once the gas level rises enough to lift the floats. Could you have a bad/leaky float?
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dj

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #231 on: July 06, 2007, 07:19:51 AM »
DJ, even with the petcock on prime. Fuel should not be coming out the overflow tubes. If it does..this issue is level, or needle-seat issues. I have run mine for hours on prime. No gas anywhere but where it should be. Simply,This is because the needle seals the float chamber once the gas level rises enough to lift the floats. Could you have a bad/leaky float?

Well, it looks like I have an issue with the needle seals then as I have set the floats to 1.4 inches as per Lucky's instructions and I hooked everything back up last night.  Fresh gas in the tank, set petcock to prime, and after about 30 seconds there was gas coming from the overflow line again.  Shut everything off and called it a night.  I'll be taking everything apart when I get home from work today and see what I can find.  At this point though I don't really no what to look for.  Is there somesort of rubber gasket up where the needle is to help seal things off or does the needle do that all by itself?
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

inanecathode

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #232 on: July 06, 2007, 11:29:38 AM »
Theres a seat up inside the brass dealy that the needle seals off. With the carbs off i'd stick a piece of hose over your fuel inlet and push down on the floats and see if theres still air going through. Probably just dirt stuck on the seat. Could be damaged but i doubt it with the age of these bikes. Stick a q-tip in there and rub it around, see if that helps.
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dj

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #233 on: July 06, 2007, 09:35:54 PM »
Theres a seat up inside the brass dealy that the needle seals off. With the carbs off i'd stick a piece of hose over your fuel inlet and push down on the floats and see if theres still air going through. Probably just dirt stuck on the seat. Could be damaged but i doubt it with the age of these bikes. Stick a q-tip in there and rub it around, see if that helps.

I tore everything all apart again, and I still can't figure out why excess fuel is coming out the drain line.  I pulled the floats off to check the needles and the little housing thing that it sets in, and they both look fine.  The o-ring on the thing the needle sits in is good, the needle moves freely up and down the slot, and the floats are both adjusted to 1.4 inches per the specs.

I blew air in all of the passages and they are not clogged.  Blowing air in the inlet with the needle and float set up doesn't show me anything.  With the float up no air comes through and when the float is down I can feel the air.

Yet I still have gas coming out the drain line when I put everything back together.  I am completly at a loss for what is going on with these carbs.  And at this rate I am about ready to start kicking the bike.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

inanecathode

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #234 on: July 07, 2007, 12:33:03 AM »
Oh! Pfft, doi! Did you check the drain screw needle/seat and oring? If any of those are even slightly bad it'll cause fuel out the drain hose. The drain circuit and the overflow circuit are two different things, it just occured to me that you've got fuel out the drain hose not the overflow. Bad float = overflow. Bad drain screw = drain hose. I had this problem when the rear drain screw o-ring was a bit wonky and the needle was also a bit wonky. Kinda seeped, kinda dripped out both the drain screw itself and the drain hose.
Make absolutely sure the drain screw is seating right, seat it the best you can and blow air back up the drain hose, with the screw in there should be no air passing through it.
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Night Vision

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #235 on: July 07, 2007, 08:54:20 AM »
he probably doesn't know if its the overflow hose or the drain hose because they both piss out the bottom by the centerstand..

that's a good catch Inane... if it's the drain hose, then that's an easy fix... new o-rings for the screws
if its the overflow hose.... then you either suck it up and buy new carb kits and/or send them out to someone...

if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
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if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

dj

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #236 on: July 07, 2007, 09:09:01 AM »
Oh! Pfft, doi! Did you check the drain screw needle/seat and oring? If any of those are even slightly bad it'll cause fuel out the drain hose. The drain circuit and the overflow circuit are two different things, it just occured to me that you've got fuel out the drain hose not the overflow. Bad float = overflow. Bad drain screw = drain hose. I had this problem when the rear drain screw o-ring was a bit wonky and the needle was also a bit wonky. Kinda seeped, kinda dripped out both the drain screw itself and the drain hose.
Make absolutely sure the drain screw is seating right, seat it the best you can and blow air back up the drain hose, with the screw in there should be no air passing through it.

Just to make sure that we are all on the same page.  The gas is coming out the hose that is attached to the bottom of both carbs on the left side of the bike.  The hose runs down by the sidestand.  Is this the overflow or the drain line.  I think from what I see in the Haynes manual that this is the drain line.  The drain screws are the flathead screws that are in the back right hand corner of the carbs when looking at the left side of the bike right?  I haven't pulled them yet as the haynes manual kept telling me to check the float assemblies.  I'll go check the line and see what happens when I blow up it.  I'll also have to pull the carbs back out and see how those orings look.  Thanks for the advice inane.
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inanecathode

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #237 on: July 07, 2007, 10:21:34 AM »
Yes, those are the drain lines, correct. I'd pull the line off both of them, stick it back on one at a time and give it a blow. Even if it doesnt seem like theres any air going back up the line i'd still pull the screws and look at them and the seat.
It's the one part you havent checked yet, perhaps thats it.
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dj

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #238 on: July 16, 2007, 09:52:05 AM »
Well, I haven't been able to do anything with the carbs yet.  The rebuild kits are on order (shipped saturday and should be hear by the end of the week or begginning of next week).

I still have to dip the carbs.  They are completely stripped down now and everything has been blown out with compressed air.  I'll need to pick up another can of compressed air to dry the carbs after I dip them.  I also need to find around 2 hours of free time with out the kids to be able to dip the carbs and dry and reassemble them once the kits come in.

The good news is that on thursday I'll be heading down to NH to pick up the black 82 with the 83 fairing on it.   ;D ;D ;D ;D
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dj

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Re: Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...
« Reply #239 on: July 20, 2007, 03:49:25 PM »
I am working on dipping the carbs right now.  It says to dip each peice for 20 minutes and then blow them dry with compressed air.  I should have everything dipped and ready for reassembly by the end of the night.  If all goes well I'll be putting them back together and putting them back on the blue and silver bike.

Black "Beauty" will be getting some much needed attention latter this weekend.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)