Starter clutch... new caps... still wont fire...

Started by dj, April 30, 2007, 11:24:54 AM

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dj

Quote from: Tanno on June 13, 2007, 02:45:25 PM
They can read your mind also. Just "goto" your happy place, Gilmore.  :D

Hopefully Shooter isn't there.  ;)
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

dj

Called the bike shop and my new plug caps should be in today.  He said that according to the delivery notification that he got that they should arive early afternoon and to call him back around 3.  So looks like I might get the bike to start this weekend.  Maybe even a text ride!!!
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

inanecathode

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If you can't tell your friend to kiss your ass then they aren't a true friend.
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dj

Quote from: inanecathode on June 14, 2007, 02:54:54 PM
You sure they're not on BACKORDER!?!??!!!

I dont know...  I'll be calling the bike shop in about 2 minutes to see if they are in yet.  Might not be in till tomorrow, but the shiping number showed that it should be delivered today.

Just got off the phone with him and they are in.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Tiger

Quote from: dj on June 14, 2007, 03:00:48 PM
Just got off the phone with him and they are in.

8) Go get 'em and lets "hear" some good news... ;)
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming HOOOOYA lets go again baby !!!!!!

'82 Vision, Pearl Orange finish, lots of up-grades!!!

dj

Good news and bad news and worse news.

The bad news is I spent the whole weekend over at my parents house helping my dad and my broter replace the tranny in his mustang.  The good news is the tranny is almost done.

The worse news is I still can't get the darn bike to fire.  Got a brand new battery and a Battery Tender 800 for fathers day (the fully waterproog model).  I wish it was the 1.5 amp instead of the 800mA (it takes forever to charge the battery), but it works okay.

I need to pull the plugs, but I can't find the darn plug socket anywhere.  No one carries the 18mm spark plug socket.  I'll have to see if I can find it at one of the bike dealers or I'll have to go with an 18mm deep weel socket and be really carefull.  I have a feeling that the plugs that are in there are resistor plugs.  The caps I got were resistor caps (5kOhms), and if the plugs are resistor plugs then it will never fire.  I'll have to get the socket monday night and check the plugs resistance.

Even with the battery fully charged it still drops below 10 volts under load, so that is leading me to think that the plugs have a high resistance and is causing a larger then normal voltage drop through the line, which is making the battery not have enough "juice" (even fully charged) to fire them off.  I don't even think push starting it would help at this point, although it might.

Should I try push starting the bike and see if that will let it fire?  I'll have to let the battery charge up some more as I kinda drained it down a bit trying to start the bike.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Lucky

high resistance in the secondary circuit wouldn't drop the battery. your battery just isn't fully charged. try starting it jumped off the car.
to fire this bike, you need to have it cranking quickly.


check to be sure your plugs are firing.  ACE has a spark plug wrench kit
either this one:
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1273514&cp=&pg=4&sr=1&origkw=spark+plug&kw=spark+plug&parentPage=search&searchId=20847327484
or this one:
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1275097&cp=&pg=3&sr=1&origkw=spark+plug&kw=spark+plug&parentPage=search&searchId=20847331454
matches 18mm, i forget, but i think it's the first one.
this tool is identical to the one in the Yammaha tool kit.

with the plug in the boot, & the threads grounded (hold it with something INSULATED) crank the bike & see if it sparks.
if so, try some either/carb cleaner sprayed down the carbs.

--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

dj

Quote from: Lucky on June 17, 2007, 08:37:15 PM
high resistance in the secondary circuit wouldn't drop the battery. your battery just isn't fully charged. try starting it jumped off the car.
to fire this bike, you need to have it cranking quickly.


check to be sure your plugs are firing.  ACE has a spark plug wrench kit
either this one:
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1273514&cp=&pg=4&sr=1&origkw=spark+plug&kw=spark+plug&parentPage=search&searchId=20847327484
or this one:
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1275097&cp=&pg=3&sr=1&origkw=spark+plug&kw=spark+plug&parentPage=search&searchId=20847331454
matches 18mm, i forget, but i think it's the first one.
this tool is identical to the one in the Yammaha tool kit.

with the plug in the boot, & the threads grounded (hold it with something INSULATED) crank the bike & see if it sparks.
if so, try some either/carb cleaner sprayed down the carbs.

--Lucky

already tried the ether with the battery at a steady state 12.5 volts straight off the charger, light fuse pulled and no ignition.  I've checked the spark plug lines and caps and they are at 5kOhms which is what the caps are rated to be at.  So I know I need to check the plugs once I get the spark plug socket.  I was wondering what else could be causing the battery to dropping so quickly when trying to start the bike.  Off of a fully charged battery (brand new 2 day old battery) I only get about 3-4 tries of starting it and then I have to charge the battery.  Doesn't sound normal to me...
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Night Vision

you need to let a new battery charge 18-24 hours... with your charger, maybe longer..after that, you can still use an additional car battery to supplement your cranking hours...

in lieu of the ace spark plug wrench, you can go to sears and get an 18mm deep socket... naked, no insert/rubber and a 3/8in swivel extension... that's what I use.....

on your way back from sears, stop at autozone and get 4 NGK D8EA plugs... accept no other numbers than a straight D8EA

by now, if you are getting gas, your plugs are so fouled it's futile trying to start it....
take the old plugs out, put the new ones in each cap and make sure you are getting a strong blue spark when held up to the case or another ground....

if all this checks, then it should start... unless the carbs are junked up...



if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

dj

Quote from: Night Vision on June 17, 2007, 09:12:16 PM
you need to let a new battery charge 18-24 hours... with your charger, maybe longer..after that, you can still use an additional car battery to supplement your cranking hours...

in lieu of the ace spark plug wrench, you can go to sears and get an 18mm deep socket... naked, no insert/rubber and a 3/8in swivel extension... that's what I use.....

on your way back from sears, stop at autozone and get 4 NGK D8EA plugs... accept no other numbers than a straight D8EA

by now, if you are getting gas, your plugs are so fouled it's futile trying to start it....
take the old plugs out, put the new ones in each cap and make sure you are getting a strong blue spark when held up to the case or another ground....

if all this checks, then it should start... unless the carbs are junked up...




The battery charged for approx 21 hours, steady green light on the Battery Tender charger, 12.5 volts steady state (no load) when I hooked up for the first time.  Cranks the engine over really strong, but it wont start (most likely no or weak spark).  I'll get the socket and the plugs tommorrow after work and then see what she'll do.

Are the D8EA the non resistor ones???
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Lucky

I just had an epiphany!

You probably won't like it, but it completely fits...

--You had the starter rebuilt,
--You somehow had starter problems,
--Your battery dies quickly.

here's what i'm thinking:

Inside the nose of the starter is a ring gear, a drive gear & 2 planetary gears.  it is possable, & easy to put one or both of the gears in one tooth off.

the starter will still bench test, & will turn the engine too, but it'll pull the battery way down very quickly, & won't turn the engine over as fast as it should.

if left unchecked it'll wallow out the holes the planetary gears ride on. i've done this...

drain the oil & pull the starter, pull the nose off & with a straight edge, check to see that the gears are STRAIGHT accross & in line.  if not, make them so, but carefully examine the holes the gears ride on the pins with.

I know it's a pain, but do this anyway. if i'm right you might catch it before the dammage is done, if you wait & i'm right, starters are getting rare & costly....

if i'm wrong it's only cost you time & you've completely eliminated another possability.

--Lucky


1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

Night Vision

Quote from: dj on June 17, 2007, 09:16:57 PM
Are the D8EA the non resistor ones???

yes,

Lucky has a good point too about the starter... no harm in double checking
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

dj

Quote from: Lucky on June 17, 2007, 09:47:19 PM
I just had an epiphany!

You probably won't like it, but it completely fits...

--You had the starter rebuilt,
--You somehow had starter problems,
--Your battery dies quickly.

here's what i'm thinking:

Inside the nose of the starter is a ring gear, a drive gear & 2 planetary gears.  it is possable, & easy to put one or both of the gears in one tooth off.

the starter will still bench test, & will turn the engine too, but it'll pull the battery way down very quickly, & won't turn the engine over as fast as it should.

if left unchecked it'll wallow out the holes the planetary gears ride on. i've done this...

drain the oil & pull the starter, pull the nose off & with a straight edge, check to see that the gears are STRAIGHT accross & in line.  if not, make them so, but carefully examine the holes the gears ride on the pins with.

I know it's a pain, but do this anyway. if i'm right you might catch it before the dammage is done, if you wait & i'm right, starters are getting rare & costly....

if i'm wrong it's only cost you time & you've completely eliminated another possability.

--Lucky




I'll check that first thing tomorrow when I get back with the socket and the plugs.  I can't remember if I checked it the last time with a straigh edge or not, I know I did the first time.  Thanks for the suggestion Lucky.  And thanks for the plug info NV.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

dj

I called around and CarQuest has the plugs.  I'll be picking up 2 sets of them along with a deep well 18mm socket to be able to change out the plugs.  I also have the battery hooked up to the charger off the bike to make sure that when I start working on it tonight that I have a 100% charged battery.  I'm done with messing around... I'm absolutely serious about kicking the ever living sh!t out of the gremlins that are living in my bike.

I gotta hurry up and get this bike on the road as I have another V coming to the "stable" very soon.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

dj

Okay, so I got the new plugs (checked them for spark and they spark nice and bright blue).  Drained the oil and pulled the starter to see how the gears were lined up, and everything looked good.

So I put everything back together and screwed in the plugs.  Tested things out and it wouldn't turn over very strong.  Got out the jumper cables and hooked up to the truck (NON RUNNING) and hit the starter button.

I held it for maybe 1.5 seconds tops and noticed smoke coming from the starter relay (soleniod) and heard a slight popping sound.  I turned the key off and disconnected the jumper cables, but the damage was done already.

The output line of the soleniod was smoking and the pop sound was the starter wire breaking off the crimp.  For some reason the lines got hot and I mean real hot.

So, what the hell is going on with my bike.  The starer turned freely by hand and bench tested good.  The truck was not running and the total voltage at the bikes battery was 12.5 volts when I tried to start it.  I know I'll have to redo the connection for the starter motor (probably going to order some from Tiger) but what I want to know is if my solenoid fried.

Anybody seen this before???
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Night Vision

I believe I had a sour solenoid because sometimes my bike would charge fine and sometimes it wouldn't. This was after I put in a new stator too. I swapped in a different one and was good for 4,000 miles until my stator cooked.

If you notice, the red wire from the solenoid goes to the positive side of the battery. I'm not an electrical whiz, but logic tells me the entire charging system passes through the starter solenoid.
Logic also tells me the starting process passes through it too...

is it toasted? most likely because you let all the smoke out of it  :o
if it ain't worth doing it the hard way....
it ain't worth doing it at all - Man Law
;D


if it ain't broke..... take it apart and find out why


don't give up.... don't ever give up - Jimmy Valvano

dj

Quote from: Night Vision on June 18, 2007, 10:54:38 PM
I believe I had a sour solenoid because sometimes my bike would charge fine and sometimes it wouldn't. This was after I put in a new stator too. I swapped in a different one and was good for 4,000 miles until my stator cooked.

If you notice, the red wire from the solenoid goes to the positive side of the battery. I'm not an electrical whiz, but logic tells me the entire charging system passes through the starter solenoid.
Logic also tells me the starting process passes through it too...

is it toasted? most likely because you let all the smoke out of it  :o

Are these soleniods still available or are they made of unobtainium?  I'll have to check and see if anyone has one on the F/S board.  I'll also be contacting Tiger to get some new lines for the solenoid and starter as they have let all the smoke out of them to.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)

Lucky

sounds like you had high resistance in the battery cables. the check the others as well, plus your ground from the battery to the engine & the harness ground under the left coil.
--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

Tiger

:) dj...I have what you need... 8) Solenoid and new cable's. pm your name/address and I'll get them out to you.

                              8).......TIGER....... 8)
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming HOOOOYA lets go again baby !!!!!!

'82 Vision, Pearl Orange finish, lots of up-grades!!!

dj

Quote from: Tiger on June 19, 2007, 06:53:31 AM
:) dj...I have what you need... 8) Solenoid and new cable's. pm your name/address and I'll get them out to you.

                              8).......TIGER....... 8)

PM sent.
2008 Honda Rebel (Black)