Author Topic: She's starting.....sort of...edits  (Read 2517 times)

Back_in_the_Saddle

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She's starting.....sort of...edits
« on: June 26, 2004, 12:20:23 PM »
 ;D OK, so the bike is starting up, but not staying on, I think the longest its run is about a minute. I'm noticing some fast knocking from the right side. If I try to give it some gas, it may A. turn off B. hesitate, then rev. I'm not sure if thats the stumble or some other issue. What I'm trying to find out is, is the hesitation or shutting off carb stuff. I.E. syncing, or perhaps still clogged. Also, any suggestions on the forward, right side knocking, seems like its coming out from underneath where its says YICS, (not the YICS box). Thanks all for your help, can't believe this thing is actually firing, you rock. ;)

Edit: ok I started it up one more time, when I give it gas, this is hard to describe, it seems to lessen the power of the motor, it doesn't stop, just holds back more than when it is idling. Again, carb sync?

Hey Tizod, are we at the same place again? I feel I'm about a week behind you, so does that mean I'm looking at a ride to the end of the block and a walk back? Have you figured out whats up yet? I am also getting the starter sounding like it has oil in it(slow, not wanting to crank over) but I've had oil in the starter and for some reason I just don't think that's what is going on. Any insight for me?


EDIT:
Ok so, I start it once and it goes, shuts off by itself after a minute. Then, I get the slow craamking, its jumped from a none running truck. I let it sit, maybe 30 min. then fires fine again. Don't think its oil in the starter. Next question is gasket for left side engine cover, where can I get one. I'll look through the forum now, if someone gets to this before I get the info thanks.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2004, 01:59:19 PM by Back_in_the_Saddle »

tizod

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...Hey Tizod
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2004, 01:38:33 PM »
I am just about to post my own update to see if the experts here can help me out.

I am not sure about the knocking sound...I don't get that.

I get the same thing when I give it gas. ?It either dies or hesitates before it revs but once I get it to rev I can keep getting it to rev.

EDIT - I forgot to say congrats for at least getting her to fire.   ;D

« Last Edit: June 26, 2004, 01:39:21 PM by tizod »
Visions seem like women, Not sure what her problem is, don't want to spend more money on her, thinkin about getting another one, tricks you in to thinkin things are goin right and then just stops any communication. - Back In The Saddle

h2olawyer

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2004, 02:57:32 PM »
Now that it's starting & running a bit  8), you can continue to fiddle with carbs until it gets running smooth.  Could still be synch and/or dirty passages.

Knocking sounds can migrate from their point of origin.  I would suspect the starter clutch.  Most common lower engine knock in Visions.  How many miles on it?

Left side cover gasket available from Yamaha - under $10.  Some folks have used RTV with success but I don't want to risk getting that stuff in my crankcase.  If you remove the rubber plugs that seal the opening for the wires exiting through the cover, you'll also need some Yamabond 4, Hondabond 4 or Threebond 1104.
If you have an accident on a motorcycle, it's always your fault. Tough call, but it has to be that way. You're in the right, and dead -on a bike. The principle is not to have any accident. If you're involved in an an accident, it's because you did not anticipate. Then, by default, you failed.

Back_in_the_Saddle

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2004, 03:02:35 PM »
H2o to the rescue,
I actually have done the starter clutch. Discovered mine was cracked. Replaced it with another, seems ok. This knocking seems to be coming from the right side.
Checked out the local yamaha shop, gonaa order that gasket.

What I'm confused about is the starting issue, Starts up fine aftert sitting. After it shuts off, try it again and slow crank. This is jumped off a non running car.
Is there a way to check a stator that is disconnected, I have an extra one, also can I check the stator with out the bike running.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2004, 03:20:59 PM by Back_in_the_Saddle »

Lucky

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2004, 08:37:17 PM »
On the knocking, to be clear, when you talk about left and right, it's allways described as your sitting on the bike. this is true of any vehicle.

when you get it running enough to idle, carefully check the right side where it says YICS for coolant leaks. this is unlikely though.

more likely is the starter clutch or balance shaft.  starter clutch repair i'm sure your well informed of. it's well doccumented here and on my site. this noise will go away above 2500 rpm or so.

less common is the balance shaft nuts which are an easier fix, but still require removqal of the flywheel. there are 2 gears that drive the balance shaft, whish is located in the lower front of the engine. the shaft is a counter weight designed to cancel out engine vibration.  

the shaft is driven by 2 gears, one on the crank and one on the shaft itself.  both gears have retaining nuts, and over time these gears can work loose. they have lock tabs behind them that fold over the nuts, but they work loose anyway.

when you pull the flywheel to do the starter clutch and stator, that is the time to tighten the nuts. unfolt the tabs on each one and get a Very Large Wrench (adjustable will suffice) and tighten them up.  you may need to turn the crank forward & back a degree or so to be able to detect the looseness in the nut.  put the wrench on the nuts and smack the handle of the wrench with a hammer once or twice. locktite red the threads and fold both tabs over on the nuts (stock only one is used.)

the balance shaft, when the nuts are loose, will knock like the starter clutch, but won't go away at any rpm.  you may be hearing it on the right side of the engine because the balance shaft runs all the way to the right side of the case.

the reason it might seems to start easier when "cold" or after sitting is that a warm battery has less of a kick than a cool one. with no help from the charging system and a fualty starter clutch, the problem is compounded...  even with it jumped to the car, the bikes battery is still the drain point and after that the car is more trying to recharge the bikes battery than it is start the bike.

--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

nvdranger

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2004, 10:06:33 AM »
Mine was not hesitating a whole lot but would die below about 3k at first.  does holding the choke help at all?  if i held the choke the bike would stay at about 1500-2k.  my problem was a clogged passageways, after 3 rebuilds and the new keyster kits it runs soo much better (still need to synch 'em though).  a little info i just learned, if you didn't know, is the choke bipasses the throttle plates in the carbs and allows gas into the motor.  my blocked passages were the ones that were suppos the shot the gas into the carbs.

Ken
'82 Vision project.  First Vision, First Bike.
Sometimes monkeys die, Sometimes monkeys die.  It not a good saying, but its a saying.

Therrin

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2004, 06:33:50 PM »
Hey all, I just got my Vision about 3 weeks ago, and am having very similar problems.  

After having put about 500 miles on it, it would start bogging down while i was riding, and the throttle would stop responding.  Then it would either A) die and coast to a stop, or B) throttle up and down repeatedly and then die.  After this had happened once or twice it finally died alltogether leaving me 30 miles out in the middle of a desert (Lancaster, Ca).   Had it towed to a repair guy who has a shop out at the raceway.  He cleaned out the carbs, put in an in-line filter and tuned it cuz it wasnt idling properly.

Got it back 3 days ago, since then ive put another almost 350 miles on it.  Today it bogged down and died...coasted to a stop.   Made a clanking noise when i was trying to start it.  Finally got it started by jimmying with the choke & throttle.  Got turned around and headed back to the house.   Sitting at a left hand turn in an intersection at a red light.  Idle quits about 2 seconds before the light turns green.  Car behind me decides its a good time to lean on his horn and *stay* on it... <mutters>  I get it started, but rough, and get it through the intersection, at which point the throttle is jumping low and high till it about flings me into a curb.  Pull it over again.   Get it started (barely) and start limping it back home with almost no throttle response.  

A block from the house someone decides to pull out in front of me, i steered around him, and it died..... put put put to the curb.  <swears>   Get it started one more time and it drives just fine to the driveway.   I have work in the morning and its my only wheels, but at this point im pretty leary of driving it anywhere.  Anyone have any ideas one what would be causing this?  It's my first bike and im pretty green as far as bike-stuff is concerned.  I wasnt intending on having this much trouble right off the bat.

Thanks again,
Therrin

Lucky

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2004, 07:50:24 PM »
It sounds as if something is loose. check the basics first, battery terminals are tight & starter relay (behind battery box) connections are tight. coil connectors & plug wires tight, etc.

There are a few directions we could go here, but i'd check the YICS hoses first, sounds like one is either leaking badly or barely connected. the YICS is the triangular plastic box with the chrome cover attached to the carb on the right side. there are details for checking it for links on my site, Vision Resources, at http://www.xz550.com.

other things to check are fuel flow (since you have a fuel filter now, you can look & see if there is gas flowing thru it when it dies...)

make sure the petcock is on "on" not "Prime"

Check to see if the bike is charging, put a voltmeter on the battery. you should have 14.2 +/- .5 V at 2500 rpm.

just a safety note, it's not wise to use a 20 + year old bike in unknown condition for reliable transportation.. have you at least checked the brakes?

hope it's something simple & you have time to thouroughly go over the bike very soon...

--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

gbranche

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2004, 08:41:08 PM »
It also sounds like the problem could be improper fuel tank venting. If air can't get into the fuel tank to replace the fuel that's being used by the engine, fuel flow will cease.

On a test ride, have a spare key in the fuel tank filler cap. When the engine starts mis-behavin', pull over and take the cap off. If the engine settles down, a plugged vent hole in the cap is indicated.

Greg

therr1n

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2004, 08:47:34 PM »
thanks for the tips.  However, it seems like i go one step forward and two steps back.

I found "gunk" in my in-line filter about an hour after i posted last.  So i pulled the tank, pulled the petcock, held the tank over a bucket and flushed it with gas.... ugh... all kindsa nasty stuff came out.  (well, all kinds of black rusty deposits came out, i should say).   So i flushed the tank really good till it was coming out clean, filtered the gas through a tee shirt, and reassembled it all.  Then I tried it again, and it wouldn't idle or run properly.  It is actually exhibiting the same symptoms as when my carbs were all fubar.  So im gonna have to strip the carbs apart again and clean them....again.  

For some reason, even though i have an in-line filter, it still let enough "crud" into the carbs to foul them again.   The filter just has a little metal screen in it, is it possible to get an in-line filter with a more stringent filter mechanism in it??

Therr1n

Lucky

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2004, 09:14:30 PM »
I've rebuilt dozens of Vision carbs and i allways install the clear cone shaped filters with the sintered bronze filter.  the problem though is not so much filtering the fuel, but the crud in the carb. if the tank has rusted& gunked that badly then your carbs are loaded with it too, even with a filter. a thourough cleaning is needed, & dipping is reccomended. even if you get them really clean sometimes a piece trapped in a passage will work loose later due to the running vibration of the bike, but then it's usually only a matter of some carb spray in the passages.

--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

Therr1n

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2004, 10:07:32 PM »
Ok.... so if i POR the tank, get the bronze sintered in-line, and dip the carbs, i suppose i should be good to go.  (lol, till somethin else goes i suppose)

on the topic of dipping.... um... in what?  is there a good carb-dip that everyone goes by? or is it just whatever i can find?   Walk into an auto-parts store and ask from what isle i can procure some carb-dip?
(carb-dip...that sounds too much like a weight loss program)

btw, do other bikes have this much finicky-carb trouble? or is this mostly a vision thing?   If not, are other carbs not as... (searching) exacting?   How does that all work out?

Therr1n

tizod

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2004, 10:44:23 PM »


Should be able to find it at any Autozone or Kragen type store.

Just make sure you pick up some rubber gloves when you do. ?It's toxic if asborbed through the skin.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2004, 06:49:40 AM by tizod »
Visions seem like women, Not sure what her problem is, don't want to spend more money on her, thinkin about getting another one, tricks you in to thinkin things are goin right and then just stops any communication. - Back In The Saddle

h2olawyer

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2004, 11:23:28 PM »
The most finicky thing about Vision carbs is getting them totally clean, properly adjusted & synchronized the first time.  After that, you run a little Sea-Foam through with every third or fourth tank of gas.  Keeps things clear - kind of like ex-lax for your fuel system.  The normal fall & spring storage rituals, (at least for those of us who live where there are seasons), will help keep things from getting very bad again.

Most bikes will have some form of carb trouble if they sit very long without Sta-bil in the gas or without draining the carbs.  The gas turns to gum & varnish, clogging the passages and Berryman's becomes the only way to get them clean.  Visions are just a bit more difficult to get running right than other carbs but it can be done if you take your time, ask questions and follow Lucky's awesome advice.

H2o
If you have an accident on a motorcycle, it's always your fault. Tough call, but it has to be that way. You're in the right, and dead -on a bike. The principle is not to have any accident. If you're involved in an an accident, it's because you did not anticipate. Then, by default, you failed.

Lucky

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2004, 04:53:14 AM »
Hey Tizod, I noticed you linked the Chem-dip pic from my old site, why aren't you using XZ550.com instead? that Geocities site is a pain in the @ss & XZ550 has more info..

--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

tizod

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2004, 06:48:35 AM »
I did a image search on google and that was the first thing that came up.  

It was pretty late at the time so I did not notice that it was your old site.

I can't believe that Berryman doesn't have a photo on it on their site.  ::)  Or at least I could not find it last night.
Visions seem like women, Not sure what her problem is, don't want to spend more money on her, thinkin about getting another one, tricks you in to thinkin things are goin right and then just stops any communication. - Back In The Saddle

tizod

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2004, 06:52:54 AM »
By the way...

I noticed you changed the site somewhat.  I like it.

I was curious though...who is hosting that site for you?  Are you still going through Geoshitty because I noticed you still are getting their ads.

Since you own XZ550.com you should maybe shop around.  It's very cheap these days.  I have mine hosted through http://www.lunarpages.com.  It's about $7 a month and you get a ton of options and no ads.

<Steps off soapbox>
Visions seem like women, Not sure what her problem is, don't want to spend more money on her, thinkin about getting another one, tricks you in to thinkin things are goin right and then just stops any communication. - Back In The Saddle

Lucky

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Re: She's starting.....sort of...edits
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2004, 12:45:13 PM »
RobTx graciously hosts my site on his server. My wife & I are self employed and have 2 boys, almost 10 & almost 12 (god help me, lol). we don't make piles of money, but we usually manage to get the bills paid ok.  ;D

I never had the extra $$ for a website and Geocities is free, but places restrictions on hits, per hour & space, etc.  I was Bitching Out Loud once and Rob offered space he wasn't using.

I've never asked for donations, or considered making the site pay.  I 'd rather see you guys spend the $$ on your bikes.  If anyone ever wanted to make a donation, i'd have them send it to Rob directly, but no one ever has & that's fine.

as for Geocities ads comming up, that's probably left over code.  if you see some, send me an email with the URL & i'll try to edit it out. some I can, some I can't as some of the pages were made with geocities online sitebuilder. I know just enough HTML to be dangerous....

Thanks for noticing the changes, I like the simple banner I did, Ron or perhaps TimB did the Yamaha tuning forks with the ROV in them a long time ago. I have a slight change to make in the gold border to more accuratly represent the 82's.

--Lucky
1982/3 XZ550 Touring Vison, Gold on Black

 

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