engine won't fire - it's been 8 years

[mintwax]

Please help.

From the link below, in the xz550 folder you will find a dying-engine.mp3 which is the sound of my xz550 engine struggling to fire.  http://briefcase.yahoo.com/mintwax@sbcglobal.net

While I have the start button held down the engine is cranking and making horrible noises.  When I let go of the start button the engine quits.  Can somebody listen to the sound and diagnose what is wrong?   Is the sound a bad sound?

The engine has been fired once in the last 8 years.  And that was 4 years ago.   The bike has two flat tires so I can't do any of the 'roll it down a hill' tricks.  But what I want to know is, from listening to the engine noise, can you tell whether the engine is totally junk.  Does it need to be overhauled?  Are there other, less drastic, things I can try?

I put in new oil, oil filter, gas, spark plugs, battery.  The sparks spark a big blue arc when grounding against the engine block.  But I know this doesn't mean the sparks actually fire in the engine.  Compression test on both cylinders pass.  I know fuel is coming out of the petcock and I guess that means it is getting into the cylinders.  

Thanks for any ideas.  This is my first bike.  I want to learn how to ride on this thing.  But I decided that I wanted to learn a little about motorcycle maintenance first since I know nothing (although I've learned a lot from reading this forum already)  Plus I got this bike from my friend for free.   I've had two dreams already where I got the bike working and I am riding around on it.

Morris

[Walt_M.]

I can't listen to the MP3 but a quick guess is that your starter clutch bolts are loose. It is a common problem and relatively easy to fix. If your bike has around 27K miles on it, that is probably what it is and is also why it was parked for 8 years. It will still make a horrible noise even if it starts, because of the loose starter clutch. Lucky, our most experienced member has a website with starter clutch repair instructions and lots more. Also, you should get a repair manual. They are available on CD and Lucky can furnish those too, if you ask him nicely and send money.
Also, one of the reasons your bike will not start is that the carbs will need to be disassembled and thoroughly cleaned. We have 2 members who offer carb cleaning service, Rick G is still doing it and Lucky will be doing it agian when his weather warms up and he can open his shop again.
This should get you started, welcome and good luck.

[Lucky]

Welcome Mintwax!
What I'm hearing is the engine cranking (with a weak battery) and a "Ka-THUNK" sound.
It sounds like one or a combination of 2 things:
1) The starter clutch bolts are loose, a very common thing on the Vision, there is a permanant fix for this. See the starter clutch page on my site here:
http://www.xz550.com/starterclutch.html

The other thing i'm hearing could be a "kickback" due to a weak battery.  what happens is that the starter clutch works on centrifical force.  If the engine isn't spinning fast enough while cranking, compression from the cylinders overcomes the ability of the starter clutch to keep it's grip on the crankshaft gear it rides on.  try cranking the bike with it jumped off a car (NOT RUNNING!) and see if it helps.  Youll probably end up replacing the starter clutch bolts though...

There is a lot of info for "new" Vision owners on my site: http://www.xz550.com/

I don't charge for the shop manual downloads, but if you want it on CD I can do that too., of course, donations are allways welcome, lol.  to download the manuals follow the instructions on my site.

the Vision is a "hands on" bike, so come here often and ask lots of questions.  you'll get several responses, often the same day, on any question you might have a bout the bike, and believe me we've heard 'em all!

--Lucky

[Don]

The problem is the battery is low.I mean very low!Mine did the same thing everytime it boiled the water out of the battery.good luck after you get a good charge.
Don

[mintwax]

Thanks for the suggestions.  Sounds like there are three possible problem here.

1) battery low
2) carbs needs cleaning
3) starter clutch needs repairing

I have a new battery in there.  And I charged it up to 12.2V.  I verified this using a multimeter, measuring at the negative and positive posts of the battery.  Maybe there is some dead connection somewhere.  Time to pull out the electrical wiring diagrams and start measuring all the different places.  What should the crank voltage be?  crank voltage - the voltage of the battery when the engine is cranking.

Carb cleaning doesn't sound that difficult - by 'difficult' I mean, no expensive tools required.  However, Fig 4.1 on page 101 of the Haynes XZ550 Owners Workshop Manual shows lots and lots of pieces.  So it does look time consuming.  Know of anywhere I can purchase a rebuild kit - o-rings gaskets?   Would a dirty carb really cause the noises that I hear in my engine?

And finally the Starter Clutch Overhaul.  I see terms like SCARY part, impact gun, use caution, balancer puller and peen.   What is 'peen'?  Hopefully it is a not-enough-voltage problem.  But thanks for the link, I will consider this.

[ofstone]

To me this sounds like a dead battery or not fully charged.
Also a battery charged to 12.2V is not fully charged or in bad shape.
Is there enough acid it all off the cels? (fill up with demineralized water only)
When my battery is ''full'', then after standing 1 night the battery gives between 12.50 and 12.80V. This is voltage is higher directely after riding.

[Lucky]

That's what I said, a combination of problems.  The Vision is a "hands on" bike and some amount of mechanical ability is required. those timid of tools need not apply.

here's how you can narrow it down: fully charge the battery or replace it, and see if you can get it to fire.  The TCI will not fire the plugs below 10.9 volts.

If you can get it to run, or at least keep it running by feathering the throttle, see if the noise (it makes a sound like a rod bearing going) goes away over 2500 rpm.  at that point the starter clutch rollers are overcome by centrifigal force and the noise subsides.

after sitting 8 years your bike most likely will be suffering from a leaking seal in the starter (easily fixed), a leaking YICS box, (takes a little skill to repair) burned stator and corroded connectors & fuse box, and that's just for starters

With all of this "Bad News" take heart, these bikes can be restored without a huge pilre of money, the investments are more elbow grease, logical thinking and time here on the Forum.  I can confidently say that there isn't a person here who hasn't experienced at least one of these problems, and usualy many of them.

Lastly, a ray of hope for you: Look at the pics on my site & the Vision Gallery (above) of my V.  When I first got my bike it had sat outside, unprotected,  9 years in snow, rain, heat, ocean air, etc, etc. i was told last week the bike looks "fantastic" by someone who saw it when it I first had it.  and i'm a cheap SOB...

--Lucky

[Rick G]

Battery Voltage is only part of the story, You should purchase a miniature battery hydrometer to test the specifc gravity of the electrolite  (acid) in the battery. It comes with instructions , but basicly there are  four  coloured balls in a glass tube that float at different specific gravitys. It should float all four when its full.
The TCI ignition system will not fire properly if battery voltage drops below 10.5 volts (such as when trying to start the engine  with a low battery)
The reason the carbs will need to be  dipped is due to the long dormant period, the residue of evapored gasoline will have plugged up all the passageways and jets in the carb. You can certainly try to do them yourself, but you will be better served by having Lucky  or my self  do them . (Lucky has a vast knowledge  of automotive  repairs and I am a veteran motorcycle mechanic. )  Yes, I'm a "veteran as well as the bikes I work on. LOL
 You will need to correct the starter clutch problem , before going any further(its really easier than rebuilding the carbs) and while your in there inspect the stator , We will tell you what to look for.

[packerrj]

Not that I have a lot of experience with these bikes, but I'm getting more every day.  Everything to look for is stated already, by very knowledgable people.

I'm in the same boat.  Purchased a bike cheap on E-bay that's been sitting for about the same timeframe.  I just thought you feel better knowing someone is going through the same situation.

-R

[mintwax]

Don't know if this was a good idea but I hooked up the battery charger onto the battery and then tried to start the bike. ?The voltage was around 13V so this is definitley sufficient. ?I tried for several minutes and the engine still wouldn't start. ?Then, micraculously, the engine kept on firing even after I had let go of the start button. ?I let it run for about 10 seconds in complete shock not know what to do next. ?

The sound didn't sound very healthy. ?But, then again, I have no idea what a healthy sounding engine is suppose to sound like. ?Can anybody post a sample of a normal running XZ550 engine? ?

So I give a little bit of throttle and the engine immediately quits. ?I tried several more minutes but I couldn't get it to fire again. ?I will try to post another mp3 of the engine running if I can reproduce it. ?Then I notice a terrible smell. ?Wish I could record the smell and post it on the internet.

Lucky, thanks for the todo list (YICS box, stator, seals...). ?My main goal at this point is to get the engine firing consistently. ?I want to defer anything else, like performance tuning, safety, longevity, that won't contribute to this goal. ?Mainly because if the engine doesn't run I consider that game over. ?Things like engine overhaul is game over. ?I'm still considering the carberator cleaning (hmmm $60... hmmmm) and starter clutch overhaul. ?I know there are fifty different things I need to eventually do BUT which of the things you mention are must-do to get the engine firing?

It is very encouraging to see all the support on this forum. ?Thanks. ?It gives me encouragement to continue on. ?Internet is good.

[mintwax]

Here is the mp3 of the engine firing.  In the 'xz550' there is a xz55-firing.mp3.

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/mintwax@sbcglobal.net

The first attempt fails.  You can hear the engine cranking but when I let go of the start button the engine quits.  The second attempt, a few seconds later, succeeds.  I let the engine run for several seconds then I slightly touch the throttle and it dies.

Is this the sound of a normal engine?  If so, why would the engine quit when I barely touch the throttle.

[Walt_M.]

Please clean your carburetors! You are getting fuel into the engine, at least enough to let it idle but as soon as you open the throttle, the increased air causes the mixture to lean out and it quits. The accelerator pump is not working to prevent this and it will not until you have cleaned the carbs. Is your bike an '82 or an '83? There are carb rebuild kits available for '83s on ebay. You may not need kits though, just be careful with disassembly is you decide to do it yourself.

[mintwax]

Carb cleaning it is.  I'm on it!

I have an '82.  I thought I had an '83 because of the front fairing.  But on closer inspection I see only one front disc brake and no fuel gauge.  I believe the fairing was added on later after market (need to confirm with my friend that gave me the bike).  I'm pretty sure it is an '82.

Walt, I see the '83 carb kit you mention on ebay.  I've asked them if they have '82 kits.  I will keep looking.  You mention the accelerator pump.  But this only applies to the '83 right?

[Lucky]

I agree that you probably need to rebuild the carbs, play with the pilot screws a bit, you might get it to run better.

check the YICS for leaks per my site, if it leaks, you can block the hoses off temporarily to see if that helps. (after 8 years, i'll almost garentee it's leaking, and that's a HUGE vaccume leak)

there are no rebuild kits for the 82 carbs
--Lucky

[Lucky]

Ok, I just listened to the second recording, and while it's hard to tell from that  wheather it's a blown engine, rod bearing, etc, it does sound bad.
---BUT---
when the starter clutch bolts are loose it makes a sound like the bottom end is going to fall out of the bike. It sounds terminal, but isn't.
fixing the clutch fixes the sound, also there are 2 locknuts, one on the crank behind the starter clutch, and one on the balancer shaft that if loose, will make the same sound.

you can try to narrow the location of the sound down by using a mechanics stethiscope or ling screwdriver to pinpoint the location of the noise.

hold the handle of the screwdriver to your ear, and touch the tip to the cylinder, side cover, bottom of the case, etc and see where the nois is loudest.

If you can get the engine ro run above idle (play with the pilot screws and block off the YICS) see if the banging stops or is reduced above 2500 rpm. that would deff say starter clutch.  I think quite a few Visions have been sold cheap because the owners thought the bottom end was toast...
--Lucky

[mintwax]

I don't have many tools. ?That is bad, but correctable. ?Below is the stuff I'm going to buy to carry out the carb cleaning and the starter clutch work.

1) carb cleaning

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35597&item=2465723487

Will the '83 carb kit (see above) work for the '82 carbs? ?There are pictures of gaskets included, do they look like they will fit the '82 carbs. ?I spent 2+ hours on the internet looking for '82 carb kit and all I got were dead ends, including one person saying "There are no '82 carb kits, only '83". ?So I'm hoping the '83 kit will do.

2) starter clutch work

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00944363000

Above is the breaker bar that I'm going to get for removing the flywheel. ?It isn't called a breaker bar, but I think it is the same thing from looking at the pictures. ?I hope 3/8" drive and 10" length is sufficient. ?Or should I go with the 1/2", 18" one.

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?vertical=TOOL&pid=00947626000&bidsite=&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes

Above is the harmonic balancer puller at sears, id #947626, $20. ?Just like Lucky said.

[JaBey]

Carb Cleaning: If it's your first...your really in for a treat. Don't be discouraged though...there is no better way on earth to learn then by just doing things. I do not think you can use an 83' set on an 82' but I could be wrong. Before you rebuild it with new parts, you may actually want to consider trying to reuse the old. I always use the old first, and if a problem occurs upon replacement (like a needle won't seat or something) only then do I pay for things. Most all gaskets and seals are reusable so long as you don't dip them in cleaning solution. If you get confused where parts go, goto Yamahas site.

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/

Go to the menu item Parts&Service and click on Parts Catalog. This will take you to a separate window. Select Motorcycle Parts from the drop down list and click GO. Once you select your bike from the list, it will give you a parts break down of every item and you can magnify it as big as you like.

Starter-Clutch:
Though I always recommend people invest in tools, I just wanted to mention that any Autozone will rent any tool you would need to do this job. All rental tools are listed on their site, and they have catalogs in the stores.

http://www1.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/in_our_stores/loan_a_tool/loan_a_tool.jsp

I didn't need a breakerbar for mine..the bolt alone came off rather easily...but yours might. However you have to really beat the living crap out of the puller to get the flywheel off. I just prefer to beatup rental equipment instead of mine:) Which reminds me?you might want to rent a hand sledgehammer:P

Please keep the questions coming if you have any more. The guys here are always willing to help and we like to offer any encouragement we can for people to take interest in fixing Visions.

[Lucky]

A couple of notes on Jabey said.  If you don't want to tackle the carbs on your own, Rick & I do them. we've done several for members (I've done a couple of dozen)  I don't know what Rick charges, but my time this year will be severly limited, so i'm only doing a few, and i'm thinking of "auctioning" this service.

That said, i think it's a good idea to try to do them yourself first. you'll have a better understanding of what's going on inside your bike, unless you have NO mechanical ability at all, and can't thread a bolt straight...

83 kits will NOT fit the 82, so don't waste your $$.  There are no 82 kits.

for pulling the flywheel, use a hand held sledge, not a full sized one. they are harder to controll, and if you miss & hit something in the engine....

we will be here to help you through any vision project you have, so if your unsure, stop & post it here.

--Lucky

[ArrrGeee]

yep, I agree with lucky on the hammer. Although you might have better luck with a dead blow hammer, less likely to break something....
save your money on the breaker bar. If you really want to get one, get a decent one. half-inch drive and at least 24 inches.

-Ron

[QBS]

I agree that you will indeed "learn by doing" your own carbs.  But, in my opinion, V carbs are not the ones to start on.  However, if you do proceed along that path, get a Haynes manual.  Be EXTREMELY carefull when going about the process of removing the float pin.  The chances are very strong that you will break off one or both of float pin pedestals in the attempt.  Should that come to pass, your options are to aquire another carb body top or attempt to glue your damaged carb top back togher with JB Weld.  Knowing what I do after 20 years of V ownership, I'd send the carbs to Lucky or Rick Greville and direct my learning process toward my Vs' other mysterys.  Good Luck.  Cheers.