New bike, old problems?

[tig5]

Hey guys, short-time reader, first-time poster....
I just wrote a beautiful introductory message, attached a photo that was too large, hit the back button and lost everything  :-\
Anyways, I just got back to New Zealand following an ill-fated yet still highly enjoyable attempt to ride a 4T Bajaj Chetak scooter from Alaska to Argetina...more about that here if you are interested www.stepthrupanam.com.
On returning to NZ I bought an 83 XZ550R for just over $1k NZD, it had a WOF and Reg and sounded like a good deal. It has proven to be heaps of fun to ride in the last couple of weeks, especially when its running properly!
It seems the PO or perhaps even the PPO has made some modifications, ?seat, indicators, tail light, exhaust, mirrors, bars? and possibly done some internal work although I was unable to confirm any of this when I made the purchase.
I have been having a few typical problems with the bike that I thought I'd share with you guys to make sure I'm on the right track when I go about repairing them.
Firstly, the starter only lasted a week before it started spinning freely and not turning the engine over. I suspected the clutch bolts but continued to bump start it for another week. I am aware the tank is well rusted. One morning I came outside to find gas leaking from the carb area, I attempted to bump start it and found the bike to be hydrolocked. I drained the gassy oil and figured it would be a good opportunity to inspect the starter clutch. I bought a 3 hole puller and the flywheel came off surprisingly easily, no bashing required. The clutch bolts were so tight I couldn't get them off to replace them so I figured I wouldn't bother, they may have already been done anyway. The clutch itself wasn't cracked or damaged from what I could see, the rollers had no flat spots etc. I figured things may have just been a bit loose/unmeshed which would explain why the starter wasn't turning the engine, so I reassembled, refilled with oil, hit the start button, same problem. So I'm now assuming the starter itself is the problem. Any thoughts on what the issue might be or the best way of figuring it out. If I remove the cover and drain the oil, can I safely hit the start button to see what is happening/not happening? Am I likely to need one of these rebuild kits?
I'm assuming the hydrolock was caused by rust jamming the float, I've been turning the gas off after use now which is probably a good habbit to get into anyway.
The speedo is quite a bit out, I might try to adjust it or maybe replace with one of these ebay jobbies, anyone had experience with them?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-digital-speedometer-LCD-gauges-digital-panel-Universal-Best-offer-/181109809650?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2afc61f2&vxp=mtr

My bike seems to lack a fuel gauge....is this normal? Anyone ever installed one?

I'd like to tidy the bike up, probably more cosmetically than anything else, maybe even cafe it a little. There is a guy reasonably locally selling a complete engine that has been installed in a quad. I'm unlikely to buy the whole thing due to shipping costs but if he decides to part it out which bits should I be going for?

Anyway, it's great to see such a lively and useful online forum. I've done a bit of reading, still found out the scary way that you can't ride this bike with no hands.....so I guess I have a little more to do ;)

I'd appreciate to hear any thoughts/hello's or comments,

Tig

[Fuzzlewump]

Tig5, welcome to the forum!

I'm still a learning newbie here myself, so I won't pretend to be super knowledgable about your issues, but in a very short while you'll have plenty of responses from wise sages who are. The thing that makes this website so awesome is that very few (if any) are judgemental, and all are helpful and encouraging.

I've recently rebuilt my starter and also gone through the common starter clutch fix. Having done these jobs and read very extensively about them, I offer the following:

There is a stock oil seal inside the starter that is a major failure point on the Vision and it allows oil to flood the starter, rendering it inoperable over time. The only real way to tell if this oil seal has been changed for a better aftermarket one is to disassemble the starter and look inside. If the upgraded oil seal hasn't been installed by a PO, it's unavoidable that you will have to do it one day. I'm willing to guess it could be part of your problem.
I have compiled some notes and photos regarding the starter rebuild....just follow the link here:   http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=14513.0

I'm sure I won't be the last to say this one, but....a starter clutch re-tightening is a MUST DO job. It's something that you want to be certain is taken care of. At least two members have posted before about experiencing a lock-up of internal bits due to the bad factory starter clutch bolts, and nearly resulting in a major accident on the road.  (Internal bits lock-up is an advanced technical term, btw  ;D)

If the bolts on the starter clutch plate/flywheel are not obviously peened over, as opposed to weakly staked, they need to be removed and replaced with better-grade bolts, loctite and heavily peened over. This should be done even if the current bolts are in tight and tidy. The starter clutch plate does not interlock with the back of the flywheel, those bolts are the only thing holding the two together and they need to be MEAN tight, with measures taken to restrict their backing out in the future.

In fact, some members have done the fix and still had starter clutch failure many miles down the road. It's just another V weak spot. You wanna make absolutely certain that one's good to go before checking it off the list. Tons of info available on the forum, as it's one of the most common Vision needs.

That's my two cents, anyway.

Your trip in the Americas sounds awesome! I'm an avid traveler, and I'd love to make a similar moto-trek one day myself. How did you like Alaska?

[The Prophet of Doom]

Hey Tig
Welcome to the very small group of NZ ers here.

Yours is probably a 16R 1982 model.  Check the serial number - it will affect the parts you need to some extent.
Cool instruments - I've never heard of anyone repairing the stock ones and the USA models (a major source of parts) are all wrong. 
I have 3 spares bikes, so let me know if I can help with parts

Check out this page - you'll need it.
http://ridersofvision.net/rovforum/index.php?topic=12221.msg111223#msg111223

[Rikugun]

Welcome to the site Tig, I feel like we have celebrity in out midst! Or does one need to do a few Star Wars movies first? Wow, what an epic journey - kind of a Pan American "Long Way Down" step thru style...    :D :D.   I'd wished you'd made a separate introduction thread to really do justice to your recent journey. Anywho, looks like plenty of good reading ahead for me on your site and sorry to hear about your back. I'm guessing that's been resolved? Also thanks for the heads up. Mental note to self - avoid Honduras like the plague.  :(

So, you have starter problems, eh? No better way to be introduced into the wonderfull world of Visions!  :) If the starter is spinning but not engaging, and the clutch appears to be tight, perhaps the springs and rollers are in need of replacement or the large (48T) idler? Are the bolts holding the clutch in place peened? They'll be visible from inside the rotor/flywheel and be mashed over if the clutch issue has been addressed. If it has, that doesn't guarantee it won't fail again or that it's been done properly either. I tend to doubt it's the starter itself but it wouldn't hurt to pull it apart and ensure it's not full of oil, brushes are good, planetary gears in good shape etc. Also, if you haven't allready, ensure the stator output is good. If you need to replace it no better time than while you're under that engine cover.

If I remove the cover and drain the oil, can I safely hit the start button to see what is happening/not happening?

Be cautious here. The small (28T) idler gear shaft won't be fully supported with the cover off. If the starter clutch did engage, I'm not sure what would happen but I can imagine some pretty awefull things that could happen.  :(

I'm assuming the hydrolock was caused by rust jamming the float

more than likely and/or the O-rings sealing the inlet valve (aka needle & seat) are shot.

I've been turning the gas off after use now

It should be a vacuum controlled petcock with "ON", "RES", and "PRI"? If so, there is no "on and off" per se but leaving it on PRI will flow gas when the engine is off filling the engine if the float valves are stuck.  It's also possible for the petcock to malfunction and flow fuel when it shouldn't. Pull the larger of the 2 hoses off with the engine off and the selector to ON or RES and there should be no flow, PRI will flow. It's normal position is ON, REServe when you are low on fuel, and PRIme will flow independent of engine vacuum and be used to fill empty bowls i.e. after storage or the like.

My bike seems to lack a fuel gauge....is this normal? Anyone ever installed one?

You would need a tank with the sending unit and the cluster with the gage and the appropriate wiring.  ;)

[Rick G]

I would NOT try to push the starter button with the cover off . Nothing usefull will be revealed and there is a strong  possability of damage. I'm sure there is a problem with  starter clutch,perhaps you can make contact with Roro or one of the other NZlanders for an opinion?
The only XZ's I know of that had a fuel gauge are the North American 1983 models . You would need  the tank w. sender unit , the instrument cluster with fuel gauge  , the petcock, witch will not connect directly, hoses will need modification.

[tig5]

Thanks for the replies guys. My petcock on my tank does have an off position, I guess this could be a replacement part.
My bike is indeed a 16R.
When I popped the flyweel off I was presented with the rollers, caps and springs. Nothing seemed out of order. I pushed the springs back in the holes, put the caps on the ends closest to the rollers and pushed the rollers back into place. Am I correct in my thinking that the starter itself has no bendix mechanism, rather it uses the starter clutch instead? Can anyone think of a way I can isolate whether the problem is the starter itself or the clutch? My visual inspection of the clutch didnt show me anything unusual.
Thanks for the offer of parts Roro! At the moment I'm trying to find a LH side cover and possibly a less rusty tank, possibly a new starter if it turns out I need one. You got any of these bits laying around?
The scooter ride was a real blast. It did end sooner than we would have liked but when you are travelling as haphazardly as we were then every 1000km was another miracle. The blog didn't quite make it as far as we did but I have had some encouragement to write a book, or at least half of one. There should be a video on the site of me breaking my collarbone which is good for a giggle.
Any of yuo guys use tank bags? There are some really cheap ones on ebay that I'm thinking about. Anything I should be looking out for?

[The Prophet of Doom]

Theres no engagement mechanism in the starter.
You can run the starter off the bike to test, but if it makes whirring noises then it's probably good. 
Starter clutch you can test by hand it will go one way and not the other with no backlash.  If it has spent time in a bad state, the rollers can get a bit scuffed up.  Perhaps they are sticking? or the springs lost their spring?

If your tank is rusty, welcome to the XZ club buy a POR15 kit - a used one likely won't be any better.  Same goes for starter - unless your commutator is buggered - get a rebuild kit on ebay.  Then you will know it's good.  I'll have a look for a LH cover - is yours cracked?

[tig5]

Left hand plastic side cover is missing. I tried to buy one off trademe and ended up with a battery holder  >:(
I'm assuming that when I check the clutch and its ability to only spin in one direction, this should be done with the bike in gear? Could the clutch mechanism benefit from a good spraying of wd-40? If I remove the small gear wheel (the one that you can easily pull out once the cover is removed) Can I then test the start with it in place?

Cheers

[The Prophet of Doom]

Oh plastic - yes fairly sure I have a spare - i thought you meant engine cover.
PM me your address

I guess if you take off the cover and the gear wheel, then you should be able to run the starter, but why not just pull the starter - it's just a couple of bolts and you won't need a new gasket if it turns out to be the starter. I doubt it will be if it makes whirring noises

WD40 might help clean out some gunge, but I'd fully disassemble, check for burrs. Then reassemble with red loctite and well peened bolts

[Rikugun]

Like Roro said, if the starter is spinning the problem is likely to be the starter clutch. Don't rely on just a visual inspection of the springs and rollers - they may look fine but not be doing the job. Maybe there are spring free length measurements in the manual? The other part of the equation is the gear the rollers act upon. All these parts of course rely on the clutch assembly being attached tight to the flywheel. These parts are often able to be reused successfully but that's no guarantee.

Also, you stated you can't get the clutch bolts off but are they clamping sufficiently to keep the assembly from shifting? In other words they can be loctited in place (i.e. hard to remove) but not torqued to spec.

There is the possibility the clutch and starter are both only somewhat healthy....  Does it engage then suddenly freewheel? The clutch grabs from a stationary position and holds until engine speed overcomes it's grip. If the starter motor is erratic acting - even slight variance in speed may do it - the rollers may be braking contact then sliding over it's mating surface. Worn rollers and springs may increase this tendency. This theory is just conjecture on my part that I offer for consideration.  :P

If you were to bench test the motor with a known good battery the motor should have a significant torque reaction when power is applied. The RPM's should build nearly instantaneously, not over fractions of or seconds and the speed should not vary. There should be no grating noises or excessive vibration. You can test the RPMs with a direct read mechanical machinery tachometer but I wouldn't know where to find out what the speed should be.  :( If the starter meets the admittedly subjective criteria above the problem is more than likely something to do with the one way starter clutch assembly.

Singles and twins are especially taxing on starting systems. My 550 4 cyl starter probably draws much less amps to function. On the Vision - and I can't stress these enough - the charging system must be functioning. The battery must be very healthy - and just a voltage check may not be enough to make this determination. The starter motor must be very healthy as must the clutch assembly. All the wiring and connections involved must be clean and tight - switches, relays, battery, solenoid, grounds etc. You will figure it out as others before you and it will work as well as any Vision can.  :D

[pinholenz]

Welcome to the world of antipodean XZ550 owners. Not too many of us but there's not too much that Roro and Treedragon don't know - they and their North American cousins have got my XZ550 back on the road.

I have a few spares, but no LH cover. Have a RH"Vision" cover if you really want to have confused parentage!. All the best.

P.S. Hendrix rocks!

[The Prophet of Doom]

I don't know so much - I'm just a backyard hack with a long history of severely malfunctioning visions.

[tig5]

Haha right on guys. I have 4 days off starting from tomorrow, so hopefully I'll have some time to pull some things apart again. Long live the drought!

[tig5]

Oh, and Kiwis, what do you think of the custom XZ mufflers on trademe? A guy in Welli is making them, $390.

[The Prophet of Doom]

Cycleworks are pretty good - they've been round for ages. lighter than stock, good build quality and a decent gauge steel.  They have a nice exhaust note too.  They also do Chrome and stainless if you would prefer, though the stainless ones run $7 or 800.

Since you are in Wellywood, you could go visit them and get them to build a custom set for you.  There are heaps of funky alternatives you could have built like Iain's chrome slashcuts, treedragon's large bore,  Predators, SpecII, Macs.  Pictures of all these on the site.

If you do get some customs made, take pictures and get them to keep measurements.

[tig5]

Ooo I like the sound of custom.

Back to the problemos at hand...I pulled the flywheel again for a gander at the starter clutch. Against advice I hit the starter (before removing the flywheel) making sure the small gear wouldn't come flying off, and noticed that both this gear and the larger gear that sits directly behind the starter clutch spin properly. So the starter itself doesn't seem to be the problem. I dont completely understand how the clutch functions. I assume that when the gear behind the clutch spins it creates friction against the rollers moves them across and further toward the centre of the mechanism causing them to grip the gear and spin the flywheel/drive shaft? Or have I got it all wrong? Regardless there is no flywheel action whatsoever. I took some pictures of the clutch. The oily bolt visible on the back side does appear to be peened to me, any thoughts on what the issue might be?

[The Prophet of Doom]

Put the clutch and the 48T idler gear together.  It should turn one way, and lock tight the other with no slippage.
There looks to be a fair bit of scuffing in there - my guess is the rollers are binding and not pushing out towards the centre properly.  Unbolt the clutch from the flywheel and check that your clutch housing isn't cracked.

Behind the 48T is a 46mm bolt - nothing to do with your problems, but make sure it's tight before you re-assemble.

[Rikugun]

Roro makes some good points although I'd add the test he describes may not be 100% conclusive. The starter and reduction gears develop more torque than you can by hand. If it slips by hand it will never turn the engine over. If however, it seems to hold by hand it may be overwhelmed by the starter and natural reluctance of the engine to spin over. There's really no reason to do the hand test as you've demonstrated it slips under load by your "against advice" test.  Actually, it's a good thing it did slip else the outcome may have been very disappointing....  :P

Roro pointed out some scuffing on the flywheel that may be important. It looks like the rollers have been banging around in there. Pictured below are two examples - one in good shape and another not so much. Those ridges may interfere with the rollers moving freely and locking the 48T gear and flywheel together. Note in the 2nd pic the cracked clutch body over one of the spring holes. Yours may be similarly affected but you won't know until it's been removed and examined.

Re the peened bolt.... There is so much oil obscuring it I can't tell if it's been peened/staked or not.

[tig5]

Thanks for the input guys. When the 48T gear is put into the clutch mech it seems to grip quite nicely. When the starter engages it it spins super freely....which leads me to a hunch.....that maybe.....my starter is spinning backwards???? I've heard this can happen. The starter at the moment is turning clockwise.....anyone know if that is normal?

[QBS]

Extreamly doubtful that the starter is spinning backwards.  Google Sprag clutch.  Much will be revealed.  If your starter clutch housing is not cracked, you can probably replace all your rollers and springs and win.  From what I can see from your pictures, the one screw still in the body isn't peened at all.  A peened bolt/screw looks like a mushroom.  I HAVEN'T DONE THIS: It might be possible to use springs from ball point pins (cut to the proper length) in place of worn factory items.  OR...stretch your collapsed OEM spring to put life back into them.